The key of Gb / F#

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 10 Sep 2001 7:07 am

I was mistaken -- there's only one "bastard" key. That's the key of Gb/F#. I still prefer to call it Gb (more on that in a minute).

Thinking strictly from a "piano" point of view, there's only 12 major signatures, not 15. Why? There's only 12 notes on the piano.

The 11 key signatures that are used are comprised of:

1 through 5 sharps, 1 through 5 flats, and 1 with no accidentals. (Notice how neat that works out, since there are only 5 black notes on the piano).

If you start in the key of C, and then move up 7 half-steps at a time (the cycle of fifths), you move from no accidentals, to key signatures requiring 1 sharp, 2 sharps, etc. up to 5 sharps.

Thus,

key of C - no accidentals
key of G - one sharp
key of D - two sharps
key of A - three sharps
key of E - four sharps
key of B - five sharps

Starting at C and counting DOWN 7 half-steps at a time (reverse cycle of fifths), you move from 1 flat to 5 flats.

Thus,

key of F - 1 flat
key of Bb - 2 flats
key of Eb - 3 flats
key of Ab - 4 flats
key of Db - 5 flats

If you were to count UP seven half-steps from B, or DOWN seven half-steps, you end up with the "bastard" key of F#/Gb. I suppose in the key signature you could show the E's to be sharpened (written in the key of F#), or the C to be flattened (written in the key of Gb) -- but I've never seen that done. I guess it's because there's not a "black key" corresponding to those notes.

So, why would I prefer to call it the key of Gb? I guess because all of the other keys are either written without accidentals, or with flats in the names.

On the other hand, maybe I should feel pity on the sharps, and at least call ONE key a name that has the word "sharp" in it.

Now my head hurts again.

Oh, and what happened to those missing 3 keys? They must correspond to one of the keys already mentioned. I'll leave it as an exercise for someobody to figure it out.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

[This message was edited by David Pennybaker on 10 September 2001 at 02:50 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Sep 2001 8:37 am

I've always seen the major key written as Gb, and the minor key written as F#.

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 10 Sep 2001 10:02 am

I guess F# minor makes more sense than Gb minor, since the keys of D and A both have sharps in the key signature and F# minor is (if I didn't screw it up) a relative minor in both of those keys.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 10 Sep 2001 1:37 pm

David: You have two typos in your sharp key list: D has Two sharps and E has 4 sharps.
Related minor Keys refer to the major scale named a 6th step below the minor. A minor is the related minor key to C Major. To put it another way; related minor keys are based on the 6th step of a Major Key.

Now while its true there are other minor chords within a major scale such as F#m in the key of D, it is not related in the same way F#m is to the key of A Major.

A Major also has within it's structure, B minor and C# minor chords but the only related minor scale is the F# minor found on the 6th step of the A Major scale.

The other structures are called modes and while they look like scales and are treated as such, the classic theory of related minor scales and Major scales is as I have writen above.

I won't try to repeat what others have said in this thread, that would be redundant and waste space and time. I think you have all the tools you need to construct these things on paper to see how they are built and the spacings within them. This is not to say it will always transpose properly to a key board and I lack the expertise to anticipate your difficulties there.

I wish I was as well versed as some of the others who have posted here but regret that I am not. Keep trying and you will surely figure it out. I like to call it a Magnificent Puzzle and I have been at it for
42 years. That doesn't say much for my metal powers but I do know it has been fun !!

Regards, Paul

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 10 Sep 2001 1:56 pm

You have two typos in your sharp key list: D has Two sharps and E has 4 sharps.

Thanks. I corrected them. How in blazes did that happen? Argh.

Related minor Keys refer to the major scale named a 6th step below the minor. A minor is the related minor key to C Major. To put it another way; related minor keys are based on the 6th step of a Major Key.

So, E-minor isn't a related minor to C-major? Only A-minor? Does E-minor have any other special relationship to the C-major scale?

My usage of the phrase was meant (incorrectly, apparently) to convey that A-minor and E-minor are the only minor chords that are composed of notes in the C-major scale.

I'll say one thing -- the whole concept is easier to envision on a fretted instrument than on a keyboard.

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 10 Sep 2001 3:29 pm

David,

You said:

"My usage of the phrase was meant (incorrectly, apparently) to convey that A-minor and E-minor are the only minor chords that are composed of notes in the C-major scale."

What about D minor?

The reason the KEY of A minor is relative to the KEY of C major is that both KEYS consist of the same notes. But you can make three minor chords with the notes of the C major scale (D minor, E minor & A minor).

GV[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 10 September 2001 at 04:29 PM.][This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 10 September 2001 at 04:44 PM.]

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 10 Sep 2001 3:49 pm

David: E minor in the key of C is a chord
built of members of the C scale. It is a relative minor in the key of G. One of the things I read while I was in Europe helped me in naming the chords of scale steps. It goes:
MAJOR, minor, minor, MAJOR, MAJOR, minor, dim

In the key of C, that would give you CM, Dm,
Em, FM, GM, Am & Bdim. These are the triads based on steps of the scale and built by taking every other member of the scale. But there are reservations about a dim triad that must be considered later on.

Another limerick I read about was used to find each succeeding scale. It went: Charlie Go Down And Eat Breakfast Food. The first letter of each word is the scale name.
Earlier, I listed all 15 scales and you can see there, how this fits.

Just remember that the three enharmonic equivilents plus the 12 fretted keys equal the 15 standard scales or the circle of 5ths.

I am glad you asked this original question. I may be out of my realm in these explanations but explaing these things to you, or anyone for that matter, has given me a better insight into the material. For that, I am in your debt for giving me a chance to say what, I think, may help you.

Best Regards, Paul

[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 10 September 2001 at 04:52 PM.]

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 11 Sep 2001 11:34 am

Great Thread! For years now with different bands when I'd do Steel Guitar Rag if someone would ask what key it was in I'd say "F-flat". You'd be amazed how many bass players, guitar players, etc. would look at their guitar necks wondering where to start. A few after counting their frets would get it.

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Have a good 'un! JH U-12

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 11 Sep 2001 2:56 pm

Ahhhh ! F flat, the key of love !!

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 11 Sep 2001 3:13 pm

What about D minor?

Shhhhhhh! We don't talk about THAT chord.

Obviously, I wasn't quite awake when I made that post. :rollseyes:

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

David Pennybaker · Post by **David Pennybaker** » 11 Sep 2001 3:15 pm

Ahhhh ! F flat, the key of love

Isn't that the same as E-flat sharp?