...People Hear What They Want To Hear...

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 7 Jul 2003 6:58 pm

Oh yeah,

SGR.

1-1-151-.

I invariably try to play it against:

1-4-151-.

Been rolling over doing the BC/LR version again. Used to do it, and can't remember what the bass player chord chart would be.

Anybody got a clean chord chart for the "new bridge"?

EJL

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 8 Jul 2003 12:26 am

Herb, I thought the 2 chord in the bridge was fairly obvious, isn't that the way it ended up on the Jimmy Day version?[This message was edited by Chris Forbes on 08 July 2003 at 01:27 AM.]

Larry Miller · Post by **Larry Miller** » 8 Jul 2003 2:35 am

The Bud Isaacs version does not go to 2 either.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 8 Jul 2003 5:10 am

Firstly - thanks, Pat, for 'posting' those lyrics; I knew there were more errors on the JB version but I'd forgotten the specifics. I KNOW it's of little consequence in the Grand Scheme of Things, Herb, but I liked that song so much that it caught my attention when I heard it butchered like that. If the same thing had happened to a Shania song, I guess I'd have let it pass

...

CHORDS: I get irritated when 'wrong' chords are played when it's pretty clear to me that it's happened through laziness, the lack of a decent chord-vocabulary or, more commonly, as the result of poor ear-training.

Having said that, I'm going to remember Herb's 'What does he know?' line - that one got my day started! (I may have to use it myself one day...)

I toured with songwriter Sonny Curtis a few years back - one of his songs that we played in the show was an old Bobby Vee/Crickets hit called 'More than I can Say'. I'd always liked this one, and enjoyed the use of a 2-major in the sixth measure of the verse rather than the more-predictable 2-minor. In the late-'80s, out of the blue, a UK artist named Leo Sayer had a HUGE hit with this old chestnut, and his version out-sold the 1962 original at a ratio of ten-to-one! The arrangers had 'changed' (or misheard) this chord, and it sold in millions with the 2-minor!

Me, trying to be a 'clever dick' at rehearsal, put in the 2-major - Sonny gently corrected me, saying, 'These days, it's a 2-minor - if you had received that six-figure residual check, you'd change the chord, too....'

There's a moral here somewhere, but I'm not sure what it is!

------------------
Roger Rettig

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 8 Jul 2003 7:13 am

A change in chords can be OK if it's logical.
More so if the changed version was a huge hit too.

We did a reggae version of Georges Brassens Chanson Pour l'Auvergnat, we did a few small chord changes to fit in reaggae style better.
Brassens estate had no problems with that, and all who have heard it think it's very good as is.
Crowbear loves this version.

The Brassens estate did have a problem with an additional verse intended as a homage to " La Poete" G.B., and we had to take that out... but that meant another solo for me.. he he he!

I forget my own 3rd verses all the time, choruses no problem 1st fine, 2nds get a bit vague and third verses fogedaboutit.
if you don't use it you lose it, and I don't repeat them often enough.

Needless to say I forget other people's songs even more easily.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 08 July 2003 at 08:16 AM.]

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 8 Jul 2003 7:48 am

Pesonally I find it rather annoying that people might actually believe that the J. Robbie Robertson credit on most of the band's material (lyrics and music?) would indicate that Robbie wrote all the songs.
Yeah sure..

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 8 Jul 2003 8:34 am

Pat, you said:

...but with the constant drunkeness, not only did you not know what lyrics might pop up, you also never knew how many verses or choruses a song would have, where and when they would occur, where the turnaround might be, whether the outro meant to stop...

You just described the average gig for me..

Back on topic, I've seen singers hammered by an indignant audience member for blowing a lyric, but I don't think I've ever had anyone from the audience tell me 'you guys didn't play the IIm'.

I also played with a singer/front guy once that had the uncanny ability to reduce any song known to man to three chords. THAT is talent...

[This message was edited by Bill Terry on 08 July 2003 at 09:34 AM.]

Dave Burr · Post by **Dave Burr** » 8 Jul 2003 9:56 am

Jason,

That's a very interesting comment. Would you considering elaborating on that a little? Most of what I know about them came from watching "The Last Waltz" DVD.

Respectfully,
Dave Burr

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 8 Jul 2003 9:56 am

..Jason,

...notice I called it "the wonderful Band song", not "the wonderful Robbie Robertson song"..

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 8 Jul 2003 10:38 am

Dave, what Jason is referring to is the common knowledge that EVERYONE in The Band had a hand in writing/shaping the songs. To this day Levon Helm is a bitter man who refuses to even speak to Robbie Robertson. Rick Danko is one of my earliest heroes and he's the one who inspired me to pick up the bass. Sigh, I miss him and Richard Manuel, what a couple of GREAT singers they were. [This message was edited by Chris Forbes on 08 July 2003 at 11:40 AM.]

Anne Marie O Keeffe · Post by **Anne Marie O Keeffe** » 8 Jul 2003 10:46 am

I've got Joan Baez singing that song on the Ring Them Bells album and she clearly sings "Stoneman's cavalry". She obvioulsy discovered that she had been singing it wrong and corrected it.
I too hate when people get the lyrics wrong but it's not really cause to condemn them. Musicians sometimes get it wrong when it comes to chords, but hey they're only human too........even steel players.

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 8 Jul 2003 10:56 am

Levon sums things up pretty good in the latter part of this interview.

------------------
Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 8 Jul 2003 11:29 am

Anne Marie, I wasn't condemning Joan Baez for blundering through the lyrics...I was condemning her because I don't like her

...

...but she did help me to illustrate my point..

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 8 Jul 2003 3:06 pm

There is a big difference between arranging a song with a group and actually writing the song.
I believe Robertson wrote most of the songs and brought them in, and the band as a whole massaged them into the shape we know and love.

But the actually song writing I believe was Robertson even if some lyrics and small changes in melody where added to it by the ensemble. That's adding style to an existing song. And The Band had that in spades.

The only one in the band to have a major album on his own afterwards was Robbie Robertson, and that one I believe won a Grammy.
All the other cats are great players , singers, and extremely talented. And I am sure are also song writers too.

But that still doesn't get the actual writers credit if they didn't actually copywrite the song and bring it into the band to do.

So Jason are you suggesting that Robertson took credit for communally writen material.
If so, I don't understand how the group stayed together for so long in that situation.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 8 Jul 2003 3:15 pm

No comment on the Robertson issue as I only know what I read. The story sounds lousy but I don't know anybody's heart or soul.....but just as a matter of personal principle-----there's a bunch of things I'd rather do than listen to Joan---her warble doesn't do it for me---but I admire her and her life and I am grateful. I have no interest in preaching and I am not bothered by anyone's personal opinions. But this is mine. Here's to you, Joanie. (But you sure blew it with those lyrics).

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 8 Jul 2003 4:19 pm

..it's funny, I didn't intend for this topic to be about Joan Baez or Robbie Robertson or chords or drunks on the bandstand, or even about lyrics on the bandstand..it was just an observation about how people hear something other than what was sung...

..guess this just illustrates how subjective the human brain is, how it just naturally picks some of the information, processes it, adds to it, expands upon it...

..it must have been difficult in the times of oral tradition to maintain the original historical story line, even when the story was sung..

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 8 Jul 2003 4:58 pm

But that's how 'conversations' go sometimes.....

RR

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 8 Jul 2003 5:10 pm

..indeed it is!...Hey, how 'bout them ______ !(Mets, Braves, Giants, Yanks, Sox)...

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 8 Jul 2003 8:20 pm

Bill Terry - You say that no-one's ever come from the audience and challenged you on a wrong chord....

I don't doubt that for a moment - but am I to infer that you don't think it's worth troubling to get them right?

The majority of the Great Unwashed out there don't know what chords are, but the more discerning among them might detect a change of nuance in a more sensitive piece if a substitution was made.

If this isn't so, my belief-system will be severely undermined....

RR

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 9 Jul 2003 4:45 am

OK Pat, I've got a story that will bring it right back to your topic...

I remember a Merle Travis interview, probably in Guitar Player Mag, where he discussed the same subject.

He said people often come up to him and say, "Man, I love your song "16 Tons', everyword of it is so true!"

Merle pointed out the most of the lines in the song could not possibly be true.
Lines such as, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"I was born one morning when the sun didn't shine,
Picked up a shovel and I walked to the mine."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Folks only heard what they wanted to hear.
Most likely,

"Another day older and deeper in debt.

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 9 Jul 2003 6:50 am

Hi Roger,
In response...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>am I to infer that you don't think it's worth troubling to get them right?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely not. I think it's very important to get them right, if not for the audience then for me. I try to be as professional as possible, and that's part of it. But don't count on Joe Six-Pack to give a hoot...

The majority of the Great Unwashed out there don't know what chords are, but the more discerning among them might detect a change of nuance in a more sensitive piece if a substitution was made.

I agree, I guess that's why I care.

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 9 Jul 2003 11:34 am

..thanks, Joey...this drifts a bit from my own topic, but here's a test of how well we all hear the lyric from a classic song..

...no cheating now...off the top of your head, what line follows -

R.E.S.P.E.C.T., Find Out What It Means To Me

....

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 9 Jul 2003 11:44 am

well if it's not

R.E.S.P.E.C.T. take care of TCB

which I'm not saying makes much sense to me---but if that's not it, then I'm clueless.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 9 Jul 2003 1:16 pm

Isn't it - 'Sock it to me, Sock it to me...' ad nauseum?

Bill,

Sorry - I might have sounded a little curt in my last entry (I was feeling sorry for myself after posting a rash of what I considered to be thoughtful and helpful posts on the SGF, only to have them ignored - I'll get over it!) and I worded it carelessly; my apologies.

The Sonny Curtis incident that I quoted was a discussion between musicians - he was endlessly diligent with his arrangements, but laboured under no delusions that more than a handful of listeners would ever know the difference.

RR

[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 09 July 2003 at 02:22 PM.]

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 9 Jul 2003 3:12 pm

..Jon is correct...makes me want to go out and get a frozen yogurt...

..here's another classic, this time from CCR...again without cheating, off the top of your head, what does the singer see after he..

Just got home from Illinois...Locked the door, oh boy, got to sit down, take a rest on the porch...Imagination sets in, pretty soon I'm singin'...doo doo doo, lookin' out my back door