The Young: Are they Ruining Country Music?

Shaan Shirazi · Post by **Shaan Shirazi** » 20 Aug 2003 6:07 am

My statement was not about how a player can sound on a cheap instrument it was about how the price of something motivates someone to give it a shot.

Here's an analogy: The price of eye surgery lasers is dropping like a rock so now every eye doctor in the world even the one's that got C's in medical school want to operate on your eyes. Is that a good thing?

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The Pickin' Paniolo

Shaan Shirazi · Post by **Shaan Shirazi** » 20 Aug 2003 7:45 am

Went out on the web to find an inflation calculator for fun. http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
I used the numbers in the last post and here's what it said:

What cost $149.00 in 1963 would cost $852.60 in 2002.
Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2002 and 1963,
they would cost you $149.00 and $26.04 respectively.

That "el cheapo Danelectro's" price wasn't that cheap in constant dollars. What do you suppose a Gibson or Gretsch cost back then?

If (today) you make $7.00/hr at your job you'd probably bring home $900 after taxes for a month's work. I don't know what wages were in 1963 but it sounds like even the "cheap" guitars 40 years ago cost a month's salary. That same guy making $7.00 now only has to work 2 or 3 days to get a $100 electric at Guitar Center.

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The Pickin' Paniolo

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 20 Aug 2003 8:42 am

Shaan, I reread your original post and I still hear a snob talking. More musicians are better players now than ever before thanks to all these great playing affordable instruments (Carter starter, Fender Squires) and all the great music books that are out now and the free music information on the web. Oh yea, lets not forget cheap digital tuners that has everyone playing intune right off the bat so their relative pitch has a good point of reference to learn from. I have known plenty of guys who spent big bucks on gear and never really put the hard work in to get good, that's always been a joke to real players. Who in their right mind would spend the money on a Les Paul for their kid to start out on? I mean listen to what your saying, pricey investment equals motivation to learn? Motivation comes from the heart not the pocket book when one is starting out.

Country music is making more money than ever before. I hear alot of untrue bashing about young people all the time on this forum, but the fact is Shania Twain has now sold more records than any other woman in the history of music. Tim McGraw has made more money on his last tour than anybody else has in country music history. I just saw Shania on "Good Morning America" this morning. She was performing with no glitter this time, just down to earth and sweet with alot of crossover talent. I see why she has sold so many records now. She is not a threat to country but has infact opened a door for bigger sales for crossover acts. She isn't pretending to be pure country at all. You guys talking B.S. about young people all the time shows that you are not real musicians at heart. Really, all I keep hearing is envy, real musicians know it's all about heart in the end. And when you have alot of heart, your not having to put others down all the time for something you can't reach anymore.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 20 Aug 2003 9:58 am

Regarding cheap instruments, I think that if Yamaha or Ibanez had been making the same products they're putting out now 50 years ago, the vintage guitar market would look a whole lot different than it does now. A major design element of Fender guitars was how easily they could be made on the woodworking equipment of the time.

Shaan Shirazi · Post by **Shaan Shirazi** » 20 Aug 2003 10:16 am

It's good that we're having this conversation over the Internet because there is a parallel going on.

There was a time when the only institutions that could afford to be on the Internet were Universities and the Government. The discourse going on through cyberspace back then was extremely professional and resulted in increasing the speed of technological innovation and (arguably) quality of life.

Now computers are available to everyone and while the Internet is a great resource I would say the vast majority of the discourse on the Internet (present company excluded) is perceived to most as louder, more coarse, and bordering on the cacophonous. A little like a lot of the music that's popular in most genres.

So, the declining economic cost of participation in an activity transforms it from one used primarily by professionals with large investments of money and training to the lay person who is not always as committed. It is a phenomenon that by no means is exclusive to music.

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The Pickin' Paniolo

Eddie Malray · Post by **Eddie Malray** » 20 Aug 2003 10:47 am

For Mile Peroline: I just read your reply about the cheaper instruments. I did a stupid thing the other night. I have a 1963 ES335 Gibson that I bought new. It still looks new. I took it to a gig. When I got home and wiped it off i thought how stipid. The guitar is worth a few thousand dollars and I could have dropped it or any number of things could have happened to destroy it's value. The other side is, a friend of mine just bought a China made copy of my guitar for less than 175.00 from Ebay. It plays as well as my Gibson, looks just as good,and if you turn your back you could'nt tell the difference in the sound. I don't like to but anything imported and wish everyone could play the old vintage instruments but sometimes reality kicks in.----Eddie

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 20 Aug 2003 11:06 am

Well, most musicians I knew in Austin were very poor at one time, SRV etc. You Shaan sound like you have not lived the life? Musicians generally are poor if they are living the life 24/7. Having money doesn't equate to how pro a player is or how much motivation to study they have. My experience is that the guy's who are in music as a side hobby and have a stable income from a career other than music have the best gear but not the best chops. Johnny Winter, Stevie Ray etc. made do with what they had at the time and were always playing and studying which meant they were poor, very poor until they made it. There is a trade off as far as what you want out of it. You think your being slick with your mumbo gumbo of words, but what your really saying is if you don't have a lot of money invested in gear you must not be a pro and must not have a committed attitude to excel, right? Well, if that where true, I guess your previous statements would have greater weight. But it's not true and any dedicated player knows that to be the case from their own experience and any understanding of how famous players historically lived before they made it.

Shaan Shirazi · Post by **Shaan Shirazi** » 20 Aug 2003 12:34 pm

Well Jesse, you accuse me of being a gear snob but you seem to have a little bit of "gotta live the life" snobbery in you. You assume that I've never lived "the life" well...

If sleeping on the couch circuit, not having a car, and living off a girlfriend is the life then you're right I've never lived it. I screwed up my integrity by going to college, keeping a job, and buying a house. But I'm no bedroom musician and I get paid the same as everyone else in town (poorly) for steel, bass, and guitar gigs every month.

No one I know in town is rich from playing music whether they do it full time or not, but that doesn't stop a good musician from spending hundreds if not thousands in the case of steel players on a quality instrument knowing full well they'll be earning $50 a gig trying to pay it off. Do the math on the payback period for that.

I will stand behind what I say in that the ones who I believe are superior have invested in themselves and their equipment because they know it's worth it. Sure, once you get a decade or two under your belt you can make any instrument sound good but I don't see Buddy Emmons toting around a Maverick just cause he can.

No one is knocking cheap gear here or equating professionalism with money. It's pure supply and demand, economic cost determines behavior. The cheaper the cost the more widespread the behavior. If gasoline were $4.50 a gallon like in Europe you can bet I wouldn't drive 60 miles round trip for a $50 gig but at $1.40 I probably would. That's if I could tear myself away from counting all the money piling up in my house.

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The Pickin' Paniolo

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 20 Aug 2003 1:31 pm

Eric, I been throwin' out that dang AARP junk mail for seven years. I don't care how much money I could save, I ain't admittin' I'm that old.

When that young whipper-snapper Beethoven came out with those stormy symphonies, they had riots at the concerts. And some say he invented jazz when he syncopated his theme in the finale to the 9th. And I'll bet the old Jimmy Rodgers and Uncle Dave Macon fans bad mouthed those upstarts Ray Price and Buddy Emmons.

I guess I'm like your old English teacher friend. I always want to check out the new stuff. When I left playing country music in tennessee back in the '70s, and got to Los Angeles, I just had to check out those punk clubs. When I heard that buzz saw guitar and machine gun drums, it reminded me of that raucous stuff by the early Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis and guys like Link Wray. I wouldn't want to listen to that stuff all the time, but there is something there when you're in the mood for it. Same with Ornette Coleman in jazz, or rap and hip hop. I really feel sorry for those who shut out all the "young" stuff that sounds too different for them. They are missing the world as it goes by.

As I've said before, music is a big house with many rooms. And you don't have to stay in the same one all the time.

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 20 Aug 2003 2:54 pm

Well Shaan, you cleverly try and change the subject I see? Pedal steels were not part of your original statements, Carter starters could represent a cheapo I guess. But at issue were your original replies to the young question:

quote: I blame exceedingly cheap musical instruments...There used to be a barrier to entry that would automatically weed out the posers in the world because a decent guitar cost a months salary. Now any joker..can suck all night long :

Who's gonna pay someone to suck all night long and cost the club drinks and repeat business? Lucinda Williams used to busk out on 6th street in Austin for a couple of years, that's how she supported herself. She made alot more than $50.00 a night as do most good buskers.

Sounds like to me more people than ever can learn the fun and beauty of playing music themselves and that's a good thing. I think most musicians buy good gear when they can afford it and make do until then. And a, the internet was kinda boring in the very beginning, just like the world would be where only the upper class got to gain entry and participate in the world of art

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 20 Aug 2003 6:10 pm

I realize that Mr S have been blasted back to the stone age here, But I gotta admit, I never heard that "cheap instruments" caused any kind of damage to any kind of music.

The best Tele player I know has always prefered a Squire that he had for years. Somebody gave him a Burton red paisley tele and he didn't like it.

I saw Glen Campbell on the Top One Hundred show the other night playing a 500$ looking guitar. Stevie Ray played one that I wouldn't have given 3 rocks for.

Cheap Instruments....

Can't say I ever gave it much thought.

I've seen the most expensive ones just stuck up on walls, or packed away and never played.

If anything it afforded the Jose Felicianos, Danny Gattons, or other guitar monsters from "poor roots" to get one.

Anybody remember the story about the "One String Fiddle"?

" Everybody told me you can't get far with 200$ an a Jap Guitar." -Guitar Town-

Nope. Try another.

EJL

Shaan Shirazi · Post by **Shaan Shirazi** » 20 Aug 2003 8:12 pm

This will be my last example, one where I am guilty of the aforementined behavior.

I just purchased some decent home recording equipment and for the first time I can record digitally with good mics, monitors and outboard gear. We all know what a bottomless pit that can be.

I didn't take the plunge until prices came down to where you can get pro level gear (at least that's what the box says) for not much money relative to a real studio. Before now I figured my money was better put to other uses because of my lack of experience and training.

How will my recordings be? I don't know, recording might not be the thing for me but at today's prices I'll risk it to find out. If entry level gear still cost big money then I'd have a hard time justifying it. So there, I am guilty of dumbing down the overall skill level of the recording industry by my amateur participation.

I guess I'm a total hypocrite.

Goodnight

P.S. I'm 35
P.P.S. The Californa Governor's race is a good example too.

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The Pickin' Paniolo
[This message was edited by Shaan Shirazi on 20 August 2003 at 09:35 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 20 Aug 2003 8:26 pm

Shaan.

Since it's my thread, I find you Not Guilty.

Next case..

Seriously though. There was a time after the Civil War where brass instruments were very plentiful and it sparked a LOT of music.

Also, I've known several A Grade guitar players. All of whom would buy a guitar way before they paid their rent. When they were kids, they were the ones that would trade a bicycle for a guitar.

I think there is a cross section of those that have "fine instruments", and they intersect often with those that play the best. Also they intersect with those that play the worst. I think it's about even in the final overview, though I've see no stats.

How much could Lloyd Green have payed for his single neck Sho Bud?

I don't think that in the first 20 year of my playing, guitars and banjae, that I even bought One. Dad, Grandma, or friends would give them to me.

In 24 years of playing PSG for money, I've bought a Red Baron Single neck a Sho Bud ProIII a Nashville Baldwin amp, a Session 500 and a Nashville 400. I have no plans for anything new at this time, and gigs lined up as far as I can see.

Gotta run. Long days and a weekend gig.

EJL

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 21 Aug 2003 5:01 am

This topic about the kids ruining country has of course been the subject of whole books, by authors with more smarts and insight than me, but I think country got awfully damaged a long time ago. Whether to blame it all Chet I don't know, but I stole my mom's Time-Life Classic Country collection, and it is mostly terrible. Even the good songs are ruined by the trite, poppy arrangements, with sweetening of various types. Yuck.

And most of what comes out of Nashville today continues to be dreck. I think the mantle of real country is being borne by younger players like Dale Watson, and of course, mature players like we have on this forum. You may not hear it on the country hit radio, but it's out there.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 21 Aug 2003 7:44 am

On the subject of cheap guitars:

There are 2 different kinds. There are inexpensive Asian guitars that are actually quite nice, and there is garbage.

I have 2 inexpensive Korean guitars (A Raven EM6870 jazz guitar and an Aslin Dane Jumbo Jazz, which is sort of a cross betwewen a Gibson ES-335 and a Gretsch Country Gent.) I paid less than $300 for each.

Yet each is a really good guitar. They would be good guitars at 5 times what I paid for them. It's not about the money, it's about the quality of the instrument.

At the Harmony Central user reviews site, http://www.harmony-central.com/User_Reviews/ where people review thier guitars, there is a review of the Aslin Dane Jumbo Jazz by a fellow who also has a Gibson ES-345, and he says the Aslin Dane sounds better than the Gibson.

These guitars many be inexpensive, but they are nevertheless, thoroughly professionaly quality instruments, and as I said earlier, they are a boon to working players.

On the other hand there is cheap crap, but that's a whole other thing.

Somebody posed the question of whether Buddy Emmons would want to play a Maverick on gigs. Let me pose another.

Suppose some Asian company came out with an exact duplicate of a modern steel like a Mullen or Carter. They took one apart, meticulously measured each component, and carefully programmed a computer to control some sort of automated factory or perhaps robots to make an exact duplicate. The result is an exact clone that is indistinguishable from the real thing. It is absolutely as good. It plays as well and sounds as good, and only costs $500.

Would you buy one? Would you play it on a gig? Assuming you also have whichever guitar has been cloned, which one would you subject to the rigors and risks involved in gigging?

I know what I'd do. [This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 21 August 2003 at 09:32 AM.]

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 21 Aug 2003 8:10 am

Don't like the Deraillers, Green Day, Shania Twain, Cheryl Crow, David Lee Roth, Eminem, R R, loud noise, lewd and lascivious lyrics and gyrations? Then why do you have a porn collection and drool over young women in the supermarket?

OUCH!!

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 21 Aug 2003 8:38 am

I always wonder why the people that rail against lewd behavior are often the most addicted to it..

Me? I kind of like it in the proper setting of course. I don't find it threatening.

I was kind of hoping Shania would have stripped off the sweat pants and "body glove" for the second set in Chicago....

Oh well.

You can't have "everything".

We can't all be like Jerry Lee Lewis and marry our 15 year old cousins....

Me, I married my babysitter.. the meanest one I could find.

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 21 Aug 2003 3:02 pm

"Me, I married my babysitter..."
Eric, at your age, I suppose that's necessary. But what do I know? I'm too young
to remember when vintage guitars were cheap,
but I do remember drooling over a Tele at John B. Lee Music, that was 325.00. American
made, of course...I wound up with a Harmony.
Eric, you're old enough to be TWO Justin Timberlakes.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 21 Aug 2003 5:06 pm

No Steve I don't mean my kid's babysitter, I mean MINE. She's a few years my senior and mean as anybody living with me for 20 some years would be expected to be..

What band does Justin Timberlake play with?

I actually got the "good" Silvertone Banj0 from Monkey Wards when I was 10. Did a couple "gigs" with it the first year. Never learned to play like Nat Wilson though...

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 21 August 2003 at 06:08 PM.]

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 24 Aug 2003 6:21 am

Justin is one of the singers in NSYNC. Hold your hats boys... I actually like some of NSYNC's stuff.

OK Burn me now...

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 24 Aug 2003 9:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I always wonder why the people that rail against lewd behavior are often the most addicted to it..
Me? I kind of like it in the proper setting of course. I don't find it threatening.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Eric, you might consider finding a book on the psychology of C.G. Jung. Look to see what he has to say about the concept of the "Shadow."

People often rail the most against things that correspond to the parts of themselves they have repressed and refuse to acknowledge. It's easier to "project" the repressed content outward, onto other people, things, and events.

Actually, Jung felt that in order for people to realize and integrate their total selves, projection was usually a necessary step. The process of projection happens unconsciously, and only will cease when someone "withdraws the projection" through recognition and assimilation.

I've thought about this idea long enough, and applied it in observation, to believe whole-heartedly in its facticity.

I'll admit to liking young women,(as well as those my own age), and not closing my eyes when suggestive perspectives sometimes present themselves.

Like you say, setting has a lot to do with it.

There's still something about the progressive cheapening of how sex is dealt with in society that bothers me, though. It's not a big thing with me, but it's still an issue. I'd like to understand my feelings on the subject a little better.

Maybe it has to do with how everything is being reduced to purely physical elements, with no acknowledgement of higher realms of experience or values. Undoubtedly there is someone inside me who lives precisely according to those "values" or lack thereof. Maybe I haven't spent enough time learning to get to know him.

Regardless, I sure don't think "The Gubment" is the answer.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 24 Aug 2003 9:58 am

....speaking of repressed desires...I hate rich people....

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 24 August 2003 at 11:18 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 Aug 2003 3:54 pm

Funny, and it might be indeed a repression, but thought I too hate the rich, I've come to hate poor people more...

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 August 2003 at 04:56 PM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 24 Aug 2003 4:08 pm

....which means?....