Most Overrated Country Star(s)

kyle reid · Post by **kyle reid** » 19 Aug 2003 5:29 pm

Runs Like a Deer & Smells Like a John

David Cobb · Post by **David Cobb** » 19 Aug 2003 5:56 pm

I understand where you're coming from Donna, the city boys had the muscle cars, farm boys had that turbo charged diesel.

whoops, topic drift

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 19 Aug 2003 8:33 pm

Donna - I'll make every effort to listen to that track you mention, but I remain a little prejudiced as I dislike B&D's exaggerated nasal twang.

I apologize if I'm wrong about the identity of the musical miscreants responsible for the '....Beautiful' song - I was sure I'd heard it by Brooks and Dunn; anyway, I still haven't liked anything of theirs that I've heard.

I have been surprised before - Tim McGraw's 'One Of These Days' is lovely (mainly due to Paul Franklin and Matt Rollins, mind you); he sounds very acceptable on that.

And Donna - please give my best wishes to Tommy, and tell him my new D10 Zum is exquisite - I was a little unsure at first, but now I'm converted!

I agree with Donny - the standard seems a little higher with the female singers. Why IS that, I wonder?

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 19 Aug 2003 10:44 pm

Is anybody brave enough to say that some of the older generation of singers were overrated?
It's shooting fish in a barrel to say that Shania or Garth is overrated because you don't like their music, but surely some of the old Dead Dog Song country singers could be open to criticism.
Here's a start:-
George Jones could be oversentimental.
Barbara Mandrell was only ordinary, never did anything memorable.
Johnny Cash was a very limited singer - only a bit better than Willy Nelson.
Note that I'm not doing a hatchet job, I'm not saying these people were no good at all, just that they were not superbeings.
Go on, be brave, look at the faults in the classic stuff as well!
Cheers
Dave

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 20 Aug 2003 4:58 am

A good point, Dave - of course there were always 'duds' out there!

But not George Jones - maybe he could get a bit maudlin at times, but it's his technique and musical imagination that marks him as one of the best ever.

I'm sorry if this offends, but I fail to see what anyone ever saw (or heard) in Hank Snow, Little Jimmy Dickens, Grandpa Jones, Roy Acuff and many more - they seem to me to have been more like 'novelty acts' than serious musicians. They're the artists who gave country music its cornball image, and the reason why 'C&W' was largely disregarded by people who were serious about music.

Johnny Cash is an awful singer, with a severely limited technique, but he's a unique 'communicator' - the right song is in safe hands with him, although I can only listen to him for a short time.

I believe that the late-'50s and early-'60s saw a vast improvement, as producers like Chet Atkins sought to make the genre more widely acceptable. Much more ability was required of the studio player, and this has reached the point where Nashville is widely regarded as a world music capital where only the best players succeed - vocal standards have generally improved at the same time, but it's as well to remember that this is all only 'pop music', and 'curiosities' are inevitable!

For some, seeing these erstwhile performers on the Opry is a trip down memory lane, and that's fine - they're a part of the fabric of the culture - I fear, though, that many of them sound pretty poor to me.

I guess that the ratio of 'good vs. indifferent' doesn't change much through the years!

RR

Donna Dodd · Post by **Donna Dodd** » 20 Aug 2003 5:54 am

Donna - I'll make every effort to listen to that track you mention, but I remain a little prejudiced as I dislike B&D's exaggerated nasal twang.

Roger - probably not a good idea to listen to that track afterall. I like it because it has the MOST exaggerated nasal twang of anything I've heard. I REALLY like twang - any kind coming from the nose or anyplace else. It's in my blood. And I had to be a silent "in the closet" twang lover until I met Tommy. He doesn't speak or sing with a twang -- but see, he plays this really cool instrument with both hands, both feet, both knees - and can chew gum at the same time. Gotta love Steel Players!! if you like that quote, I just happen to have great bumper stickers with that saying on them (and will have them at Scotty's). If I hadn't been in the no-twang closet all these years, perhaps I would be a little more balanced.

I'll give your message to Tommy. Will you be at the show?
Regards,
Donna

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 20 Aug 2003 6:08 am

I most certainly wouldn't call Little Jimmy Dickens, Hank Snow or Roy Acuff novelty, much less overrated. If they'd start their career now, they might be considered just that for some people. BUT they were key figures of THEIR time. Roy Acuff's heyday was in the early 40's, and if you were from the rural areas of south then, you definately could relate to what he was singing about. Same with Hank Snow, and besides, he was always a very accomplished guitar player too, Chet Atkins was the first to tell you that. And Little Jimmy then, while he had some hits with novelty lyrics, he recorded tons of tunes, which should be labeled as "true hardcore honky tonk country". Plus he always employed one of the hottest bands in Nashville and was a grounbreaker too. Jimmy was the first bandleader in Nashville to permanently use pedal steel, electric bass and drums in his band and was one of the first to record rock'n'roll in Nashville ( Rockin' with Red in -53 )and the first country artist to do a world tour. Grandpa was novelty then, he was a comedy act, but that was the thing he chose to do, and was a huge influence on other similar acts and thus can hardly regarded as overrated. It's hard to put a label "overrated" on a older generation artist, simply because of the fact, that time and history has already proven if he/she is rated at all. The ones, that had many hits and were tremendously infuential are the ones that are written about today: Johnny Cash, George Jones, Ray Price, Ernest Tubb, Patsy Cline, etc. The ones that are not alot written about, can't be then considered overrated, usually it's the opposite.
But just my five cents, Kenny Rogers is overrated. Or is he rated at all? Well, at least he's lame

[This message was edited by Jussi Huhtakangas on 20 August 2003 at 08:29 AM.]

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 20 Aug 2003 7:09 am

Roger,
I too appreciate the fabric of the industry back then & I agree many where overated.

The overated stars of today,that many dislike on the forum are the one's that sell the most records in country music. They have steelguitar in their bands. WOW!
Theresa[This message was edited by Theresa Galbraith on 20 August 2003 at 08:13 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 20 Aug 2003 7:59 am

You know, it's funny, but the one thing that will piss me off as much as anything I can think of is to have somebody start dissing on ET. I notice that nobody mentioned him.

My wife never misses an opportunity to tell me her opinion, and I just have to walk away.

Another one is for some jergoff front man to do a make-fun-of-type impression of him or hack up one of his songs. I've quit over it once.

I know his vocal articulation was limited, and I'm sure the band had it's moments of noticing imprefections.

This brings me to my point.

It doesn't seem that vocal ability is what makes these folks great.

It's the WHOLE PERSON.

If it were "vocal ability". acts like Gary Morris with his tennis shoes and wet hair, and Garth Brooks with his C/W Freddy Mercury Stage shows would have been declared two of the all time best.

Yes it's true Jimmy Dickens Tommy Collins, Hank Thompson, George Jones and a couple others WERE "novelty acts".

Problem is that at a certain point "the industry" became "afraid" to promote them.

One of George Strait's early songs was "I'm gonna kill you" about killing his wife and "burying her in a small box". I doubt if you'll even find it on a discography.

With Hank Snow, it was the whole show, uniforms, musicians, the whole shot, as well as Hank's Charity Work. With Hank T, it was the musical arrangements and musicians. He was the Frank Zappa of country in my estimation.

I"m not gonna say who I think the most over-rated act is, because they/he/she come from my hometown..

EJL

Derek Duplessie · Post by **Derek Duplessie** » 20 Aug 2003 9:35 am

On the forum people are always saying tone is subjective. Well... music is subjective too. Personally, I'm not crazy about most the current country music. Right now I am more into Folk-rock, "Jangle"-rock, pop (the good kind), and classical music. But , just because current country doesn't reach out to me, doesn't mean it's not
reaching out to millions of other people (which it
obviously is). To me, music is a wonderful thing no matter what genre it is!!!! -Derek

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 20 Aug 2003 2:50 pm

Today's target demographic (i.e. target audience) for "Country?" music is something like 20-30 yr old women. I've seen it lamented elsewhere that most of the current batch of "country" music titles involve men apologizing to women about being men.

My personal pick for the most "overrated" Country Music person is Faith Hill. Nothing in her latest material is the least bit "country" in either content or presentation. Pop, contemporary, rockabilly, rock and roll, and country have all blended into one big mess on our local "country" station.

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 21 Aug 2003 4:22 am

Okay but, let's talk about the one's you think are the least talented not whether they're country enough etc. In other words, limited vocal range, pitch problems, below average musicianship etc.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 21 Aug 2003 4:41 am

I don't know who is most overrated, but for sure they've been mentioned here. Good list of 'em.

The most underrated, in my opinion, would be Vern Gosdin.

Eric, those that consider ET overrated would have to have a myopic focus on vocal range and they'd have to include Cash for the same reason. ET always entertained, sang within his range, found good songs and recorded and toured with great musicians. It all added up to quite a legacy.

------------------
HagFan

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 21 Aug 2003 5:42 am

I almost wish I hadn't replied to this thread, although it's been an interesting one - I don't think I've managed to make my point clearly enough with regard to those 'older' artistes.

Eric:
I emphatically praised George Jones - I didn't call HIM a novelty act! He's a musicians' singer and belongs in the highest musical ranks along with the best from all fields (Sinatra included).

In the course of my varied musical work, I'm often asked by other musicians what I see in country music - they're fascinated by pedal steel, and intrigued when I show them that I (or should I say 'it'!) can play any chord they want to hear. They're surprised, as they've 'pigeon-holed' steel guitar through their ignorance of its capabilities.

These guys are good players, but hold misconceptions about 'country', based, as they tell me, on what they've been exposed to. They'll very likely cite Johnny Cash as a good example of what they mean - unsubtle rhythm tracks, a less-than-refined singing style, and little trace of any virtuoso playing.

Well, I don't care for JC's work, either - for those very reasons; the list I gave above includes some of the others who, in my view, fall very short of even a reasonable musical standard. Porter Waggoner is another who comes to mind.

I KNOW these guys are 'legends', 'institutions', or whatever - they're just not very good, and I won't buy anyone's CD unless I can learn something from it.

Now, if I want to be bothered trying to demonstrate to another musician that he's missing something by ignoring country music, I have to be careful which singers I commend. From the current crop, I'd suggest Joe Nichols, Joe Diffie, Randy Travis, Trisha Yearwood, Lee Ann Womack, Alison Krauss, and even Sara Evans (she's got good 'chops') - there are a few more, but not too many!

From yesteryear, I'd recommend Ray Price, Merle, Lefty and, of course, George Jones, the master!

It's not difficult to find great playing to complete this demonstration - there's very little poor playing on Nashville records, although some of it IS a bit repetitive; Brent, Paul, Matt Rollins, Sonny G., Jerry Douglas, Stuart Duncan (and lots more) have had some stellar studio moments in their time!

Does this make sense to anyone? It was the musicianship of guys like Chet, Don Rich, Buddy Emmons, James Burton and Jerry Reed that first caught my attention and steered me towards this genre - I'll happily play these guys' work to anyone who'll listen, but I tend to keep quiet about the ones who sound like they lack even the most fundamental skills!

Roger Rettig

PS: Donna - I'm afraid I won't be at the show - I'm happy that I'm working on a show until late-October, but very UNHAPPY to miss another ISGC![This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 21 August 2003 at 06:51 AM.]

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 21 Aug 2003 5:12 pm

Yes, my home's in ....... If you're gonna play in texas.......

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 21 Aug 2003 5:23 pm

RR.

I read no disrespect into your post, but in my memory George Jones WAS a novelty act.

I remember "Ain't no Haint", Wham Bam, WHo shot Sam" ( flip side of) "White Lightnin' "I'm a People" All of the Monkeys Ain't in the Zoo, Yabba Dabba Do, the King is gone and so are you, and a couple others that were REALLY GREAT!

Nobody had anything on Tater though when it came to novelty. "Out Behind the Barn". "Sleepin at the foot of the bed, take a tater and wait, Stole my Steel Guitar, Little but Loud, God.. they went on and on and on...

J Cash had a bunch, like Egg Sucking Dog, Boa Constrictor and Ten More Minutes, Everybody loves a nut, One piece at a time, Boy named Sue, and a much more that approached greatness, but then too I think the Marketing People shut it off.

Sadly it's been forgotten.

It took Alabama almost until they were in Depends to come out with "Prop Me Up against the jukebox when I die."

It was in my estimation Fear from Marketing Directors.

Probably OLD ones at that....

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 22 August 2003 at 06:20 AM.]

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 21 Aug 2003 5:24 pm

...oh,to be as oversentimental as George Jones...and as limited as Willie and Cash...I think you are missing the point...

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 21 Aug 2003 9:49 pm

When you're running down Ernest Tubb you're walking on the fightin' side of me. Jody.

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 21 Aug 2003 10:44 pm

Whatever the era, music works by fifths and thirds.
Out of all the artists of an era within a musical genre, only about a fifth of them are the cream of the crop.
I blame record companies who have a "Me too" policy. Garth Brooks has a hit so every label has to have a Garth. What mostly happens then is that somebody who might have been a good performer in their own right, or a silly fame hungry pop kid who will do whatever he is told gets redirected into a Stetson.
Whatever you play at a gig, only a third of the audience will actually like it. Two thirds came to your gig to hear sea shanties, singalong world war two songs, rap
or Celine Dion ballads.
Like I said, music works by fifths and thirds.

In my work I have to learn to make the discrimination between what I like and what is good, in order to assess student work for grading. George Jones is good, but mostly I don't like his repertoire. Willy Nelson is not a great voice, but he writes songs I like and delivers them effectively.
You cannot say that Shania & Mutt Lange's tracks are not good, even if you don't like them.
Cheers
Dave

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 22 Aug 2003 1:05 am

I think Mr. Boothroyd might be overly generous; I have heard his "fifth" sentiment expressed as "90 percent of everything is bull***t." I'll bet that if you were to go back and listen to entire albums from George Jones or Ernest Tubb from the 60's, you'd find a lot of filler and dreck, in probably about the same proportion as is on today's albums. One thing I noticed years ago is that the singles are generally not the best songs on albums, but are simple populist anthems judged by the industry to sound best on car radios. Many artists are capable of much more than is included in their assigned marketing scheme - Keith Urban and Brad Paisley are both excellent lead guitarists and songwriters, for example, but the market calls for pretty boys these days, so pretty boys they'll be if they want a major label deal. People like Nanci Griffith or Junior Brown almost have to make a conscious choice to labor in obscurity because they refuse to be pigeonholed.

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 22 Aug 2003 3:38 am

Dave,who would you consider the"cream of the crop"of the era in which George Jones was popular(1950's-90's!)?

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 22 Aug 2003 6:35 am

"Prop Me Up Against The Jukebox". Not Alabama, It was Joe Diffie.

Chris Walke · Post by **Chris Walke** » 22 Aug 2003 6:53 am

Gotta agree with David Mason. The radio hits are frequently not the best songs on the album, from a musical standpoint. It's just the catchiest, or most accessible.

I heard a recording engineer put it this way: Popular music is like mass-produced beer. It's fairly bland so as to appeal to everyone. In short, nothing to be ecstatic about, but not too much to hate. On the other hand, a handcrafted beer, with bolder flavor and interesting qualities appeals to more discerning folks.

In my opinion, the best music never makes it to the radio playlists, and some of the best songwriters (like Patty Griffin) remain in obscurity, favored by those who look for music that is not hand-fed to them by radio programmers.