Any BlueGrass 6 string pickers here?

Rich Paton · Post by **Rich Paton** » 20 Oct 2003 9:59 pm

Your Martin should be just fine. A buddy of mine got one a few years ago, and while he had a bit of trouble getting it set up right, Martin got it all straightened out for him, and he uses "light gauge" strings (.012 on top).
For BG & Fiddle tunes, I use the same old Guild D-50 I got new in '78, that is used for anything I need to play...pop, jazz, swing, folk. It has a zillion hard hours on it, original frets which are barely but still servicable, sounds great, is not super easy to play, and absolutely will not function with less than medium guage strings. Despite many non intentional and one semi-intentional attempts, this guitar evidently cannot be broken.
Every Martin dreadnought I can recall hearing did project better than the Guild, though, on single note runs.
BTW, the Guild dreadnoughts were named "Bluegrass Jubilee" models when Guild first got on the bandwagon with them.
For a cool sounding/playing tune that I find challenging (especially when my hot-sawing fiddler brother-in-law is being supported by me), I suggest Kenny Baker's (co-written with Bill Monroe, I believe) "Jerusalem Ridge" on Mark O'Connor's "Heroes" album. And be sure to check out the music of Nashville Bluegrass Band!
Good luck in your BG playing...if you get to some West Coast festivals, let's JAM!

Larry Miller · Post by **Larry Miller** » 21 Oct 2003 2:36 am

I could have saved you some bux on that guitar with a Blueridge, instead of a Martin. I'm ready to sell my HD28 because of the Blueridge guitars I sell.

I have a BR-60, that sounds excellent!

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 21 Oct 2003 8:28 am

I love Bluegrass Music and always have. Mandolin was my first instrument and I still do some occasional gigs in that area. That being said, I think Bluegrass needs to be loosened up a lot. It's too d@mn structured. I'd love to see a bluegrass guitarist do a gig without a Capo for his instrument. I was at a BG festival once and just out of curiosity I asked some guys "How come the guitar, banjo, & Dobro players use Capos and the mandolin players don't?" to which they answered "It's an unwritten law"......... What kind of crap is that? And playing in the key of B? What other kind of music is played in B? I think B is more popular in BG than the key of C. All the guitar players use a capo and play out of the G position mostly and there's a lot of them that are amazingly good however, I've met a couple who could burn it up that way but take the capo away and play up the neck without it and they're lost. Thank God for acts like Nickle Creek and the last edition of the NewGrass Revival. They experimented a lot and didn't stay in the old tried and true way. As far as the guitarists go there's to much similarity going on. Tony Rice does some different things now and then which is good. But I have seen fingerpickers do his exact thing and then go into rolls and counter point things which you just can't do with a flatpick...........Have a good 'un...JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Oct 2003 8:53 am

Yeah remember that
boom dang boom dang boom,
ba ba ba da bomm dang rythm etc.

Get in the groove and make sure ALWAYS
it's there and BIG.
With the occasional walk up or down.

All those great players named above solo fine and sweet, but before they get to that solo they are laying down solid grooves.

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 21 Oct 2003 10:37 am

"How come the guitar, banjo, & Dobro players use Capos and the mandolin players don't?" to which they answered "It's an unwritten law"......... What kind of crap is that?

In bluegrass the capo is used more for rhythm than for solos. If you look at a bluegrass group as a drum set it will help you understand.

First is the kick drum- stand up bass mostly half notes on one and three(no capo).

Next is the snare drum-in bluegrass that the mandolin chop. It plays closed chords with a sharp decay on the two and four beats, it doesn't utilize any open strings for rhythm parts so it doesn't need a capo.

Next is the ride cymbal- This is the acoustic guitar, it has to be full and jingley with an open ring like a ride cymbal. The best way to get that sound is with chord changes out of the G position. Now not every song is going to be in the key of G so they use a capo.

The banjo and Dobro are both tuned to open chords and work off having open strings in the key of the song, so the use capos.

I do agree that some players use capos as a crutch, but if you know what your doing and know how a bluegrass rhythm part should sound then they make for a very useful tool.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 21 Oct 2003 11:12 am

What, the mandolin isn't high pitched enough for you?

It's the SOUND of the open strings ringing, both rhythm playing and lead, that makes the capo important on guitar, dobro, and banjo. Also, speaking of rhythm and lead- I've never seen a bluegrass guitarist capo for just chords and take it off to solo- not Tony Rice or any of 'em. It isn't done (not to say it can't be...) Those guys don't NEED a crutch!

Tony Rice could solo for days in B with no capo, but IT DON'T SOUND LIKE BLUEGRASS as much as capoing at the 4th and playing out of G. It's about SOUND, not lame musicianship.

The mandolin rhythm sound is closed chords, so that's one reason a capo isn't needed (besides, What, the mandolin isn't high pitched enough for you?)

Steel content: Buddy Emmons used a capo on steel ( a small bar stuck under the strings) on a bunch of early recordings...[This message was edited by John McGann on 21 October 2003 at 12:13 PM.][This message was edited by John McGann on 21 October 2003 at 12:15 PM.]

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 22 Oct 2003 9:14 am

I play Bluegrass lead guitar and mandolin (25 years) and have played in several bands. I also write bluegrass songs. Bluegrass is a unique genre. The instrumentation, and singing style (high and lonesome) is what makes it "bluegrass". Capoing up to B makes it really high and lonesome! I appreciate that Bluegrass is not everyones cup of tea but I personally have lived and breathed it for many years and absolutely love it! The open string licks I play on guitar with a capo cannot be duplicated without a capo. I can play all over the neck without a capo, but it doesn't have "that bluegrass sound". It's very similar to playing pedals on your steel vs. non pedals for the same licks. You can do it either way but you may prefer pedals to get a certain sound - not because you can't do it without pedals.

There are many bands out there that are derivatives of Bluegrass, Nickel Creek being one. They are absolutely fantastic, but they are not really bluegrass. They are bluegrass musicians though. I appreciate and listen to them all. There is room for them all too! I used to go to Ralph Stanley's festival when Ricky Skaggs and Keith Whitley were young kids playing with Ralph. I also am a huge fan of David Grisman Quintet. One of my favorite albums is one of the National Geographic Societies excursions into the Ozark mountains to record local folks playing and singin' old timey stuff that you will never hear on the radio and that may die out unless some of us learn it and keep it alive.

Come to think of it, I never tried putting a capo on my mandolin...hmmmm!

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Terry Edwards
Fessy D-10; Nash 1000
Martin D-21; Flatiron F-5

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 22 Oct 2003 10:12 am

Called the music store the other day to check in on the setup for the D16 and if not too late maybe goin with bone for nut and saddle:
"already finished" he said. "it's playin incredable. Sounds Awesome...absolutely awesome"
"bone? well....we could do it but it wouldnt sound as good. the composite materials Martin uses now transfer the sound much better than natural stuff, like bone, ebony, etc. Probably wouldnt sound as good."
I said I'll go with that and I'll be down to pick it up.
First thing I observed was the action was significantly lowered. No longer slightly higher for the bass strings either.
"Hmmmm...howd they get away with that" I wondered.
I strummed a few chords and a harsh buzzy sound met my ears. I picked a few single note riffs...."slap slap slappity slap"
"My mind must be playin tricks on me again" I thought. New strings and all. Better take it home and play it some more.
I asked for an extra set of strings before leaving and he handed me a light guage Elixers.
"oh waitaminute" I said, "did you set this up with lights? I wanted medium."
He looked over at order slip and noted it said medium gauge. Reached over and tested the tautness of a couple strings with his hand. "yep...those are mediums."
"uhhhh...ok" Bout a mile down the I thuoght, "wait a minute!" Parked the car pulled out the ax and picked some more. Harder I picked the more it slapped. Smoke started comming out of my ears. I burned rubber back to the store.
My smooth salesman/setup buddy had just left for the day. The guy Im dealing with now seemed civil, straightforward and without guile. "well do it over, no problem". I left.
I just called back and told them to keep the guitar. Case closed.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 22 Oct 2003 10:16 am

Ouch!

If you can find a used one, the Collings guitars are some of the best "Martins" being made today.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 22 Oct 2003 12:00 pm

Steven, a GREAT move on your part!! We've all
seen too many examples of music stores with attitude problems, and it's wonderful that you fired back at one. Get in touch with First Quality Music, in Louisville, KY(1-800-635-2021) and tell them what you're after, and your budget. They're a bluegrass store, I've bought a lot of stuff from them over the years. Also a cheap string source! Don't give up on 'grass!!!

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 22 Oct 2003 12:17 pm

Steven,

A good source for instruments and info in general is www.folkofthewood.com

Mickey Cochran (owner/musician) is a good friend and they stand by their products. The web site is an outstanding site for browsing and instrument comparison. Lots of pics.

Good luck and keep on pickin'!

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Terry Edwards
Fessy D-10; Nash 1000
Martin D-21; Flatiron F-5

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 23 Oct 2003 8:29 pm

OK...I havent heard much about D35's. I just checked out a '93 HD35 on consignment. Cedar top,Herringbone, rosewood back and sides. Pickup already installed. This was a real honey of a guitar to look at and play. Killer setup with mediums. I was surprized how easy the mediums were to play on this guitar. $1695. I didnt do any AB tests but it seemed fairly rich and loud. Whats the standing of D35s with grass bands? This guitar has character. makes the brand new D16 seem sterile and souless.

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 24 Oct 2003 2:16 am

D-35's are very nice guitars, they aren't that popular with bluegrass pickers only because most like pre-war Martin's and the D-35 didn't come around until 1960's.
The HD-35 is better than about 90% of the new guitars out there, and the current list price on a new one is $3349.
The top on a '93 should be Sitka Spruce. If you can get it for $1600 and its in good shape that would be a good deal. If you can get it for that price and you actually like the guitar, then that's a GREAT deal.
The most important thing is that you like it and you want to play it, and it sounds good and plays good for you.
Who are you playing bluegrass with in Ojai?
I used to play around Ventura County about 17 years ago.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 24 Oct 2003 4:55 am

I had the honor of selecting an HD-28 for a friend, and went to a music store that had three. Each was really different in tone (and feel) from the other, and they were all new! (This was in 1989)...so if you have the luxury of A/B testing, it can really help you decide. Two guitars, with consecutive serial numbers, even made from teh same wood, can sound totally different. Some kinda mojo thang...

Here in the Boston area we have a huge acoustic store (The Music Emporium in Lexington) which has walls of Martins, Collings, Santa Cruz etc. in a variety of flavors. It's like a wine tasting, except you can drive away (but maybe broke instead of drunk!)

D Schubert · Post by **D Schubert** » 24 Oct 2003 7:11 am

As a general rule, D-35 guitars with a three-piece back are not favored in bluegrass bands, because they are heavy on the boomy bass and lacking in treble "bite". Martin started making these when Brazilian rosewood was beginning to become scarce, so that they could use up smaller pieces. A nice folkie guitar, but in bluegrass circles they do not sell or resell very well. Stick with a two-piece back.

If possible, find a way to play some older D-18 or D-28 Martins (even for a few minutes) to hear and feel the guitar that everybody else is still trying to copy. That will be worth 10,000 words. Not unlike test-driving a push-pull Emmons to see what the buzz is about...

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 24 Oct 2003 7:46 am

Alvin, Im playing with the 'Iron Mountain Boys' led by Patrick Munzone on a loud old Gibson banjo. Interresting guy. Retired excop and english teacher and flys a Cessna.The bands going thru a bit of readjustment. Im replacing a guitarist they fired because he called in sick on a gig when he was actually caught giging his own thing elswhere. They just lost a strong mandoline player due to carpaltunnel(sp?) I believe. I'm hoping the mandoline will be restored.
You might be familiar players in my area such as Allan Thornhill,Dan Wilson,Bill Flores, Jim Monahan. All except for Jim still currently playing in the 'Rincon Ramblers' I believe.
Getting back to the HD35, Its the only Martin in this shop. Everything else taylors and lessor makes. The top is much deeper brown than the standard spruce tops. The shop owner said it's cedar. Very pleasant to look at with the herringbone. I suppose I could A/B it and assess how much louder it is than Taylors and my Takemine. There's no doubt though about its playability. No fight whatsoever. Does anyone know if this guitar would have scalloped bracing?
Again, you guys are a wealth of info and a great help.

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 24 Oct 2003 8:00 am

D Schubert, thats interresting. Right, it did have a three piece back, though I was admiring how pretty it was with the herring bone between the pieces. Glad you enlightened me about that. I guess I need to get out and find some more guitars to play. For some reason the leader keeps suggesting to get a big Guild. I have no experience with Guilds. My impression is they are more on the heavy side. dunno bout that one.
Personaly, I prefer a potent woody midrangy tone as opposed to either "boomy" or overly trebly. Would that be more in the direction of a D18 with the mahogany than a D28?
There's a shop in San Luis Obisbo not far from my area that stocks Collings. Think I'll head up there for a look see. [This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 24 October 2003 at 09:05 AM.][This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 24 October 2003 at 09:52 AM.]

D Schubert · Post by **D Schubert** » 24 Oct 2003 9:35 am

Steve, for the amount of money you're prepared to spend you oughta look in a wider circle of stores and alternate sources.

Don't forget mail order houses like www.elderly.com for new/used or www.gruhn.com for used-- both of these are very reliable to deal with.

Michael Miller · Post by **Michael Miller** » 24 Oct 2003 10:10 am

Steven, In regard to your desire for a "woody" sound, a solid mahogany guitar, in this case the D18, sound is usually described as "drier" and "woody" compared to a solid rosewood (D28). Hope this helps.

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 24 Oct 2003 10:10 am

My top pics for Bluegrass in no particular order:

Bourgeouis D-150 www.pantheonguitars.com

Martin HD28, D28LSV, and Clarence White model

Collings D-3

Santa Cruz Guitars Tony Rice model

Any one of these guitars will be relatively expensive and have TONE to die for. Outstanding playability and volume, great investments, and the last guitar you will ever need to own. If price is a problem, by all means get a lesser expensive guitar. The important thing is that you get something you like and that you have fun playing it.

Good luck!

Terry

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Terry Edwards
Fessy D-10; Nash 1000
Martin D-21; Flatiron F-5

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 24 Oct 2003 11:20 am

Just spoke with a fella acrooss town who's has a '96 custom Martin dreadnaught ceo-2 up for sale for $1550.listed for $2700(That all?). Sitka spruce w/ solid ebony back and sides, pearl inlay. Says it does not sound brassy or boomy and is unusually loud. Story behind this model, he says, is Martin wanted to make a line with exotic woods and acquired some special ebony from Steinway. Supposedly 110 of these were made. Any comments?[This message was edited by Steven Welborn on 24 October 2003 at 12:21 PM.]

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 24 Oct 2003 12:03 pm

For more of a "woody midrangy tone" that would be a D-18. Mahogany wood guitars have more of a midrange punch than the rosewood ones.
I have a 1957 D-18 with the "bearclaw Adirondack Spruce" top and it has the loudest cleanest tone of any guitar I've ever played. It has incredible dynamics to it, you can play soft and clear or you can hit it a little hard and cut through or you can pound on it and make the banjo picker back away. To me its the perfect bluegrass guitar and every festival I go to people ask me if I want to sell it? NO its not for sell. But the reason that I'm telling you about it is that I only paid $1500 for about seven years ago.
So just keep looking and widen your search area and if you can try out a Collings the D-1 is the Mahogany Model.
Also if you can try out some of the new Martin's they have a special edition D-18GE model out and if your going to Blue Note Music I think they have one in stock. It's the sunburst model, just try that one against the Collings D1 or the Santa Cruz VJ. They are all three in the $3000 range but I really think that the D-18GE blows them away.

And yes I know the guys your pickin' with. I played some gigs with Bill and he's a great picker. I think he plays steel also, doesn't he?

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 24 Oct 2003 1:28 pm

A cedar top should make up for the lack of treble inherent in a D-35. I have a Larivee with a cedar top, and banjo players hate to see it coming! The HD-35 does have scalloped bracing, and would be an excellent buy at that price. I'd take it over most of the other stuff recommended here. I bought a Martin D-18GE when they first came out, and it sounded real good, but I like rosewood better. A lot of "hot" players are using mahogany guitars right now, but I think this is a passing phase---could be wrong, but their tone all sounds the same to me.

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 24 Oct 2003 3:33 pm

Yea, looks like searching far and wide is my only hope for finding that old d18 deal of the century. Congats on your find Alvin. No doubt Ill wind up back at Folf Mote Music to spend a few more minutes with that HD35.
Yea Bill doubles on steel. He and Dan and Mary Wilson also play in the "Tatters". Of what I've seen Bill plays the dobro or reso about 90% and 10% steel(yes...I complained about not enough steel).I talked steel a little with Bill at several of their gigs in town. When I mentioned I play a '72 P/P, he replied, " oh...goin backwards huh?"

Actually, as yet I havent been that connected with playing with these folks except for a few gigs on bass with Jim M. few years back. He's a terrific picker. I mention them cause their the more well known established BG pickers in the area.

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 24 Oct 2003 7:58 pm

If you really want to find out more than you needed to know about Martins, go to The Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum @ www.umgf.com We recently had our 12 millionth visit in the last 2 years. There are some tuly serious experts lurking there

... I have two Martins. A D35 and a D16GT which my little boy uses. They are both set up correctly and have ivory nuts. I'm using light guage strings on both guitars and they sound marvelous.

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God Bless,
Steve Stallings

www.pedalsteeler.com

[This message was edited by Steve Stallings on 24 October 2003 at 09:00 PM.]