Age Discrimination

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 17 Oct 2003 9:06 am

http://www.james-burton.net/news.html#

I think James would have to tour in the U.S on a bill with the likes of The Hell-a-Casters, or another guitar virtuoso oriented show.
I don't think he is being age discriminated against as much as he is suffering the same Side-Man's lament as many of the top steelers of all time.

I say more power to him!
He's touring and playing to an enthusiastic fan base!

Maybe he could hook up with Dick Dale?! http://www.dickdale.com/dates.html
(or at least, Dick Dale's agent).

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 17 October 2003 at 10:18 AM.]

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 17 Oct 2003 9:34 am

Crowbear:

The “age discrimination” addressed in this thread is the single factor that caused me to leave music as a profession 42 years ago. I had been earning a pretty good living playing steel since I left home at age 15. My decision to go back to school, finish my education and get a “day” job was made when I was 27. Of course, I continued to play music for a living 5 years while getting my BS and MS degrees in physics, making a total of 17 years and bringing me to age 32. And I will have to admit that my research and thesis were in acoustical physics, mainly so I could understand this phenomenon called “music” a little better.

The thing that caused me to stop and take stock of my life and future was a situation experienced by a friend of mine. His name was Arnold and his wife’s name was Mary. Arnold played fantastic tenor sax; he could sight read anything you laid in front of him. I believe the guy could have read it upside down and played everything on the sheet – including fly specs. And his improvisation skills were equally good. Mary was a great jazz and pop singer and could phrase 3 or 4 measures off the chord pattern without ever hitting a sour note or losing meter. We used to compare her with Chris Conner with Stan Kenton’s band. The had both reached the age of 40, and were not able to find a night club job in Louisville, Indianapolis or Cincinnati – even with both of them working for the price of one. As I said above, I was 27 and only 13 years away from 40. It was clear to me that to survive into my older years I would need more job security and a reasonable retirement income.

Now that I am retired and approaching age 74, I have gone back to the steel and am enjoying it more every day. As Gene Jones once said, “I can now play what I want, when I want and where I want” and I’m having a ball living on this meager fixed income while attending and participating in steel jams and shows around the country.

I realize stars like Willie and Hag continue to perform successfully into their “senior” years, but what about people like Arnold and Mary – and me?

You younger folks should take heed from old codgers like Crowbear, Ray Montee, me and the other “sexy senior citizens” who have been there and done that. You may not believe us now, but by the time you are convinced it may be too late. I’m not saying you have to quit music because of this age factor, but you’d better have a back-up plan.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 17 Oct 2003 11:49 am

Thanx Roy, you done said a mouthfull !

ain't nothin'like the Ol'School to tell ya' where it's at

Janice Brooks · Post by **Janice Brooks** » 17 Oct 2003 12:14 pm

First of all someone please move this to music. Also it was a year ago I did a petition about lack of Opry appearences for
Stonewall Jackson and Charlie Louvin.

Finaly it was fun sitting in a crowded grandstand and lawn chair sea of folks mostly older then me for a Bill Anderson show
in late August.

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 17 Oct 2003 12:37 pm

Age-ism and reverse age-ism both reek. Music (not "music business" but actual Music) should transcend politics and fashion IMHO.

Can you play or can you not play?

I am happy to be playing with people, some half my age, in a group called The Wayfaring Strangers- the age range is from 20 to over 50. Mens and wimmins. Great fun and (I think) good music. Even Buddy Emmons dug our new CD (I did NOT play steel on it, though- I am a greenhorn on the horn, but learnin' and lovin' it). Our audiences are all ages and types, which is really nice to see.

I hope to see more young folks at steel gatherings, but I also very much respect the fact that the "older" folks (say, over 40 like me) who make up the bulk of the audience and players, are generally deeply knowledgeable and happy to share what they know about this music.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 17 Oct 2003 1:07 pm

Is that the Wayfairing Strangers with the mix of bluegrass /irish and jazz that the Berklee violin guy did with some NY cats? And Ralph Stanley on a song too.
One is a klezmer clarinetist and mandolinist.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 17 Oct 2003 1:12 pm

Pete B check your email

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 17 Oct 2003 1:18 pm

Speakin' of Dick Dale ... have y'all seen the Nissan commercial ?

That's the coolest TV commercial ever !!!

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 17 Oct 2003 1:36 pm

Moved to 'Music' section.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 17 Oct 2003 2:08 pm

Yes David that's us...
http://www.thewayfaringstrangers.com

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Oct 2003 2:15 am

John ... I am SOOOOO jealous, Shifting Sands Of Time is one of my FAVORITE cd's in all of acoustic music.
It ranks with Bela Fleck's DRIVE, of which I have owned 5 copies, and 'en plus" it has great singing too.

I was "sans cerveaux" last night, but now remember...

Matt Glazer is so open eared and perfect pitched, any infulence can be made to fit correctly.

Andy Statman is amazing on either instrument, I have a few NYC friends who have played with him for decades.

And Tony Trischka, well what can you say, he influenced Bela.

And those ladies sing irish harmonies like Dolly and Alison do bluegrass.

I play something of EVERY style on the album, and can't imagine a band I would feel more at home in...
and I am originally from Beantown.

You are a lucky dog to be in this group!

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 18 Oct 2003 5:28 am

Yeah very lucky!

We have a 2nd CD which I think is better than the 1st, in that there aren't as many special guests, it's more band-like in that we hunkered down in the studio for 3 days and played away-minimal overdubbing, mostly live solos etc.

"Drive" is one of my favorites too.

To add to the thread content: One of my favorite quotes is from Miles Davis, who was getting some flack for having a white guy (Bill Evans) in the band. He said:

"Man, I don't care if he's green and has red breath, if he can play like that I want him!"

Not all young people are flaky and not all older people are grouchy curmudeons- I know lots of older flakes and young curmudgeons too!

Wayne Carver · Post by **Wayne Carver** » 18 Oct 2003 6:25 am

It does seem like a lot of bands or artist that can't make it here, can in Europe. I've seen rock bands that were once big have to play in smaller venues just a few years after being really popular. When you're hot you're hot, and when you're not you're not.
Now that we have videos you must also look good and dance. Some of the best music even by younger bands never gets played by radio. Especially country.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 18 Oct 2003 9:12 am

CrowBear,
I recently read an interview with hip-hop guy Hawksley Workman. He has been living in Paris lately, and seemed a bit perplexed at the scene there; To quote:

"Most of the pop artists there are in their forties, because people want to listen to someone who has life experiences to sing about... they don't care about disposable pop music. You could go to a poetry reading, and it would be like a rock concert. Their artistic values are different."

Do you think this is accurate ? Kinda interesting.
-John [This message was edited by John Steele on 18 October 2003 at 10:13 AM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 18 Oct 2003 9:17 am

"Most of the pop artists there are in their forties"........?

Gosh, is that really an acknowledgement of "older" players or what?.......

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 18 Oct 2003 9:55 am

Gene, haha !
Well, it's all a relative thing, I suppose. Consider the source; Workman is in his early 20's.
Me, I turned 38 last month. On Wednesday night I have a jazz duo gig with an alto saxophone player, and I'm a bit apprehensive about it, because he's a monster... Having absorbed all the Parker/Coltrane concepts, I have no doubt he'll scald my butt real bad.
His name is Nathan Ceplinski, and he just turned 15. (!!)
Yep, I'm "the old guy".

-John

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 18 Oct 2003 3:03 pm

Hi John

we know since Josephine Baker that Paris has been a mainstay for many "exiled" artists.
it's always very "chic" to say that one lives in Paris.
when it comes to concerts, Paris is no different than New York, London or LA.
there's always a lot goin'on there.
"because people want to listen to someone who has Life experiences to sing about" even if half of the French that are there don't understand much English

heck, everybody on this great Earth wants to hear someone who has great Life experiences to sing about !
"they don't care about disposable Pop Musik"
they're no different than anybody else.
Pop artists come through here and fill the halls !
"you go to a Poetry reading and it would be like a Rock concert. their Artistic values are different" Really ?
the French aren't prone to shake and shimmy
but they sure know how to intellectualize.
Thank God they can be romantic

Hey David D help me will ya ?
arent they romantic ?
in France you gotta be Black to play the Blues or Jazz. (c'est snob and reminiscent of an époque)
Thank Goodness some mentalities have progressed but it looks like change comes from younger audiences.
Since Albert King is gone Poppa Chubby is quite popular here now

(the myth of the new American ?)
i'll take Gatemouth Brown hands down !
Kelly Joe Phelps, Keb Mo, and Ben Harper seem to be popular here.
wait till Robert Randolph gets here ....
Younger audiences like to dance and boogie
but the older audiences i find are too often stuck to their chairs
nevertheless there are many aficionados of all types of Musik and French audiences
are quite receptive.
the best time of the year is Summer and most of the good concerts and festivals are outside of Paris.
j'ai deux amours......

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 19 Oct 2003 10:52 am

Yes the French can be very romantic,
they also can be so retro that Gloria Gaynor " I Will Survive " is still in rotation.

Many popular artists are 30++, except on the RAP scene. There are the manufactured kiddie pop acts a la Britany, but there is still the big, agnst filled, minor chord Chanson Français. There are LARGE bands that go to most villages and do 5-6 hours shows that don't stop for a break and play almost anything.
And the revered navel gazers, ( les regardeurs du nobril), introspective writers and rakes, philosophic unto somnembulance.

There are people on television doing music who are quite old
and some of the best lady singers are 35+.

They have talk show, circle table,s and suddenly an acoustic guitar will be shoved at some one and they do a song from 30 years ago and kids who weren't born then sing along.

There are guys who were big acts in the 50's who still fill the biggest stades and sell tons of cd's 50 years later.

One of the most revered is George Brassans, who has been gone for decades, yet people still cover him a lot, he is call " la Poete", and was usually only him on acoustic, an upright bass and an acoustic lead player. I have even recorded 2 of his tunes as reggae.

You don't really need to be black to play blues here, but some people still think so.
I used to play with Poppa Chubby in NYC, in fact when I was on the way to Scotty's convention Poppa was on the plane with me and we go talking.
He gets a ton of work here.

There is a sort of musicolagical bent by many french about older styles, both for the romance of those times and the music.
In the Paris jazz jams you aren't welcome unless your doing a lot of Parker and train.

There are a ton of country festivals of all sizes all spring and summer, and they get acts from everywhere, but the american acts always get top billing even if they are way undercard at home.
The french like to hear "The Real Thing", what ever style "it" might be.
of course that gets down to "it" being an older definition of it.
Lefty Frizzel and Hank Snow would be huge hits here... playing EXACTLY as they did back when.

Not to say there isn't progresive music here.
I have recorded two bands recently that sounded like Drowning Pool. And there are a number of solid jazz players around with world music influences.

And the TRAD festivals are big and get ANYTHING as long as it is truely done on trad instruments, or is corretly period on newer instruments.

Another thing is if you get 10 or more french drunk at a restaurant or dinner party, some where around desert they all start singing, for hours on end.
It is reliving the good times, "les bonne heures", through the old songs, and it makes no difference what part of France or their general age, it's the same.

So I think the respect that older artists get here is indemic to the cultural mind set here.
I have NEVER seen anything like this in the USA, except around Cumbaya campfires, or maybe Bluegrass festivals. But it's not really the same thing.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 October 2003 at 11:55 AM.]

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 19 Oct 2003 12:16 pm

Here's my band -
Average age: 55 years old if you average in 81 year old Buck Page. We have a niche market,that's fer sure but we do something that's not being done much by anyone else and we do it well - 40s-50s Cowboy Music w/3-4 part vocals and big chops. We play from 4 to 7 gigs a week up and down the West Coast AND schlep our own amps. Nobody ever says we are too old(or too loud). Can we play in France too? (I'm actually kinda serious - I'd love to take our act to Europe)
-MJ-
http://www.ridersofthepurplesage.com/

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 19 Oct 2003 1:58 pm

Forgot to mention, I'm 57 going on 27, and don't let my artificial hip slow me down any.

So maybe as I am pushing towards 50 I am better off over here.

...David, looks like you've got this aging problem licked, pushing 50 from the opposite direction!...

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 19 Oct 2003 10:46 pm

Pat I am in the younger end of my present jazz manouche band at 47.
One guys 37, but the other two are 49 and 59.

Michael if you send out a dozen CD + promo packs to several festivals around december this year, you will likely get 5-6 yes answers if your band is anything like I suspect it is.
It would go over great.
CB is on one August festival commitee, but he's not the decision maker.

There are several others down here, in our area and a whole pile up north.
I suggest a web search for france country festivals, also try
http://www.country-france.com/
http://countrywebzine.ifrance.com/countrywebzine/
http://www.country-musique.com/bienvenu.html
http://www.country31.com/

You just missed this one with Texas sidestep dancing
http://www.country-france.com/festiwomen/

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 October 2003 at 11:54 PM.]

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 20 Oct 2003 10:00 am

Now,SHE could make it in today's "Country" market,no matter HOW bad she sang. But,then again,that's NashVILE politics!!

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<pre> ~ ~
©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.
www.ntsga.com</pre>

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 31 Oct 2003 6:27 am

Here's our band, the Debbie Elam Band, playing at the N.C. State Fair two weeks ago. We had 3-night stand there, and it was a great gig.

There's no one in this band under 43 years old (including the pretty chick singer), and one of us is 55 (I ain't saying which one), but this band rocks!... and we have no shortage of young fans and admirers (too bad there aren't any of them in this photo, eh?).

I've known Harry, the other guitar player, since we met in civics class in high school in 1972, and I played with Rick King (the bass player) in a college band. There are some advantages to being middle-aged- we've all got our kids (mostly) raised and have a little time and some money (it always takes that) to pursue some of the dreams we had to put on hold in our 20's in order to develop our various careers. We all agree that our ears and chops are better NOW than at any time in our lives. ... And I appreciate being able to do this for fun, rather than having to rely on it for a living. Of course, it's nice to pocket an "extra" few hundred dollars a month.

Since forming 3 years ago, we've played the BEST gigs, mostly fairs and festivals, and have opened in major shows for the Kentucky Headhunters and the Charlie Daniels Band. It's a cool thing.

I think there ARE opportunities out there for folks who are young at heart, aren't ashamed of their age, willing to play where the gigs are located, and who can and will put on a first-class, pro-quality show every time they take the stage.

Having fun and loving life,

Rick
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Rick McDuffie
Marlen SD-10, Sho-Bud Professional S-10, Paul Reed Smith McCarty, Hofner New President, Fernandes LE2G
Rick's Music Photo Gallery
www.tarheelmusic.com

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 31 October 2003 at 06:30 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 31 Oct 2003 8:54 am

Last Saturday night when our lead singer introduced the band he said I graduated from Tupelo High School "and what year was that, '69?" I said, "'64." I shoulda lied. Jaws dropped all over the room. Problem was nobody else in the room but the singer was even born then, and that is the very year he was born. I told him not to do that again. Just say Tupelo High and leave the date out.