Money In Country Music??

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 26 Dec 2003 10:14 pm

Kenny, my friend,
It's partly because the pension contributions are optional, and, as Bill mentioned, alot of guys don't have much foresight, and opt not to. The cash in hand seems nice, but in the long run...well...
I'm not a labour union enthusiast, but the musician's union is something I think is warranted. After all, it still gives you the freedom to make the bad choices like the one listed above.

Think of the symphony cats, who spend a lifetime nuturing an art that no simple-minded North American would know enough to support. To some of those guys, $200 a show would seem like pretty good bread. They'd have to fight for that, amidst a sea of people who'd lay down good money to watch some clown sing Karaoke at the corner bar.
Say, did anyone watch World Idol last night ? Darn, I missed it.

I think the union is doing their best, as we all are, to combat the forces of a public whose taste is as deep as a one-finger shot.
As some wag put it: It's a noble calling, but a poor trade. Eric, you can use that if ya like.

The problem is at the other end, imho.

By the way, Kenny, Merry Christmas, hope you're well, and I hope to see you soon; you're on my short list of Good Guys.

-John

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 26 Dec 2003 10:17 pm

The other thing I would like to add, but under my persona as hard-hearted business man-- I know some did, but I hope everyone took note of the word
 Gross in that article.
-John

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 27 Dec 2003 2:27 am

Bill. I take it you caught that it is NOT the Union I fault.

When Unions are ruined, it is by the people that are too stupid for them to protect.

Employers are not served well by The Stupid either.

(That's about a 2500 worder, condensed..)

EJL

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 27 Dec 2003 7:16 am

I want you guys to know that I am not venting on any of you personally. I just am giving my contribution on the subject as we all are.

In regards to the symphony musicians. Here in Atlanta the Union is funding the negotiations for the new multi year symphony contract. This will cost us about $25K. We have succesfully negotiated contracts in the past 20 years to the point where the LOWEST paid job to a new player with no tenure is about $50K+ a year. You stay in that orchestra for three years, you are tenured and the pay scales rise dramatically. Full pension benefits, full medical benefits, 6 weeks paid vacation, workplace/noise level limitations, and on and on. We as a union have contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to pension plans of musicians here who file contracts and collect pension contributions on behalf of the players from the employer NOT from the player. We have voted out the usual work dues that you used to have to pay for casual gigs. The only reason why we have not voted out traveling dues on shows that come through is that is negotiated in New York. Yell at them if you are a travelling player with a tour.

WE just spent $12K to renovate the Steinway piano that sits in the VERY nice large room that used to be a pro recording studio in the building that we purchased for our members 20 years ago. Every Tuesday night our building is open to members and their guests for an informal jam session/networking get together to keep in touch with what is going on around town and stay in the loop as far as getting work. We have insurance plans that you can participate in if you want to. We do not pay for the health insurance for the same reason most pro organizations don't--INCREDIBLY expensive. We just offer the ability for a self employed musician to buy as part of a group and save some bucks. You should see some of the group buying benefits we have.

As for the reason why some of you are attending benefits for deceased members---I can attest to the fact that for every dead member who has made poor financial decisions and ended up broke there are MANY more who pass on and have wonderful/respectable funerals and leave their heirs in very good shape.
By the way, the death benefit we provide is about $2000. This won't get you a bunch of flowers and a pretty gravesite, but it will/does get a deceased member in the ground or cremated and taken care of in some manner of dignity. Seen it plenty of times.

You want to go it on your own out there you are welcome to. Me--I prefer some representation among my fellow musical "sloggers". Take a look at the other professional organizations that serve every one from lawyers to flower growers. They are different than the hard core "shut you down" coal miner/teamster unions. We as musicians have more of a "Guild" mentality in our organization.

Your musicians union is only as good as your leadership and the support of the members. There are some shoddy locals out there that don't do much for the members. All in all, it is THE group to be in what has become a very tight live music marketplace. Every year the job market is shrinking in all areas of live music from the symphony players to the grunt in the bar working for bad money and all the skirts he can chase. I am fortunate that I am in my mid 50s now and am not a young player just starting out to try to make a living playing music, buying a house, raising a family etc. It is tough.

Support your Musicians Union. What else you got???

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 27 Dec 2003 8:20 am

John Steele, you are da man. A merry Christmas and a prosperous and Happy New Year to you and yours. Perhaps we can have a drink or two next ISGC.

Bill, I have never been a member of the musicians union or for that matter any kind of organized labor union and as such, my comments were based on heresay and comments I had gathered over a long period of time. I want to thank you and my friend John Steele for setting me straight. I have obviously been misled and I would like to apologize for the "slam" on the union. And a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and yours also.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 27 Dec 2003 12:34 pm

Bill. The ONLY "hardcore, shut you down" union that I know of is the Longshoremen. The Teamsters sold out years ago. As we speak they are trying their best to add more non driver, non english speaking minimum wage workers to their ranks. They already outnumber "truck drivers" by about three to one. Their rational is that they will FINALLY be out of the "wage business" and dump it in the lap of the Feds. Just like they gracefully bowed out of the trucking Industry about ten years ago.

Jimmy Hoffa is a phenomenom the rank and file no longer deserve. When the Interstate Highway System was put in place, the Feds decided that there couldn't be another "Railroad". Incidentally that union has sold out too via the Aerospace Workers...

(Oh, and Damir, in a suggestion, if you are an owner/driver in this early stage, you might look into putting yourself into the IBT as a "union hire", doubling or tripling up in your benefit and retirement contributions, and being able to come out way ahead. There are tremendous tax and other incentives by doing this. Check it out.)

There really is no Santy Claus.

EJL

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 27 Dec 2003 3:06 pm

Damn!!! No Santa Claus? Who started that rumor?

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kd...and the beat goes on...

[This message was edited by Kenny Dail on 27 December 2003 at 03:34 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 27 Dec 2003 4:33 pm

I hesitated to be the one that "Ends Christmas", but I suppose it just had to be me this year...

It doesn't make me happy.

EJL

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 27 Dec 2003 6:24 pm

I know this sounds old-fashioned, but I believe a man's first priority is to provide for his family. I'd hate to think I HAD to provide for my family by playing my guitar- whether here in Raleigh, in Nashville, Atlanta, Austin, LA or wherever. This can take the fun out of your geetar pickin' right quick-like.

I love to play, and would play for free (I often have), but life can quickly become miserable when there's no money. I chose NOT to move to Nashville long ago- simply because I desired a life that I knew there was no hope of attaining as a traveling sideman. God also gave me the good sense to realize I wouldn't make it as a frontman or "star".

My cousin Charlie Daniels helped me wrestle with this thing back then. I remember him saying, "Rick, if you're gonna play music (and he meant full-time), you can't give a damn about anything else." That did it for me- since there were (and are) a great many other things I give a damn about.

I agree with Kenny. If you're not making a living, then get a "meaningful job" with benefits and retirement- and play for fun. I'll tell you one thing (and I've done it both ways)- playing is a LOT more fun when you don't HAVE to do it, and when you can play what you like. Being "the big fish in a small pond" ain't bad. I'd much rather be in the BEST country band in NC than to be in the 75th best band in some big city.

As to the musician's union, it doesn't exist here in any visible form.

Rick

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Rick McDuffie
Marlen SD-10, Sho-Bud Professional S-10, '72 Les Paul Deluxe, Fender Telecaster Custom, Fernandes LE2G
Rick's Music Photo Gallery
www.tarheelmusic.com

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 27 December 2003 at 06:31 PM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 27 Dec 2003 8:59 pm

Amen to that, Rick. Between playing with the best western swing band in Philadelphia (ok, ok, the only western swing band in Philadelphia, but we still are the best!)

and playing occasional steel shows, I'm a pretty happy camper. Every once in a while I fantasize about what it might have been like if I'd gone on the road with a major act at some point in my life, but then I continue that dream and realize that most of the time I don't like the way that dream ends (Darn that Dream). I'm happy with the choices I've made. [This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 27 December 2003 at 09:00 PM.]

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 28 Dec 2003 4:57 am

Bill Hatcher

Enjoyed your post, but you fail to tell, as Paul Harvey sez, the rest of the story. But your post re-enforces my belief that Musicians unions interests are where the bucks are, Symphony Orchestras, Recording Musicians and Show Regulars like the Opry Pickers. Other than that they could care less about the poor Slob who was making $50 Union Scale (Local 257) a day on the road with an unknown in 1972 and that same poor slob who saw his income Dramatically increase to a Whopping $55 a day in 1982, Union Scale (Local 257). I should point out that road musicans usualy only worked 1 or 2 days a week in 1972 on weekends and if they traveled to a town and did a sitdown gig for a couple of weeks The person/artist they were working for would put them on "salary" and pay them maybe , if they were lucky, $125 for the week(6 or 7 nights).

Any of you guys with stars in their eyes and planning to move where the action is should know that for a long time, you will be a road Musician or a club picker and you will have little or no representation from the union. You won't get Recording work in the studios even if you are a stellar talent, Fraternal affillations got musicians more studio work in the 70's in Nashville than talent ever did.

In Nashville 1972, Local 257 had a president named George Cooper. He actually knew every member by sight. He would hear of a scab session going on somewhere,walk in,point out his members and say, you, you and you come out of there, give you a warning and send you on your way. Those poor guys were out the $40 or $45 for the session and the $15 they might have made on Lower Broad, where the union didn't give a damn what they made. The Next day they would be in Tootsies, buying a bowl of beans, cornbread and a glass of buttermilk on Credit. In the 7+ years I worked in Nashville, I never once saw him walk in the clubs along Lower Broadway and do the same for the members playing in those places for $15 a night, now it, according to Smiley, has dramatically increased to $20 a night. Hell of a pay raise in 31 years time, the Whopping per centage is mind staggering. Slightly over 1/2 of a per cent. Lower Broad has turned into an entertainment complex with wall to wall shows, Wonder how many Union Musicians are working those shows for $20, When is the Union to do something about that, probably when hell freezes over. Local 257 has known about Lower Broad for many years and allowed it to continue, business as usual, with the club owners getting richer and the musicians working for less than ever.

Way to Go Union!!!

Yes the union is a good thing, if you are making the big bucks, because they want what they perceive as their share. If you are making $15 a night their interest isn't all that strong.

Been There, Done That and have the Ragged assed T Shirt to prove it.
In fact Smiley and Quite a few others have the same T Shirt.
[This message was edited by John Floyd on 28 December 2003 at 06:14 AM.]

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 28 Dec 2003 10:12 am

Mr Floyd's comments along with other similar statements that have been passed down or by me for the pass 45 years is what prompted me to make the statement about the union. In other words, nobody really gives a $h!t for the little man who really needs the support and work. That also is the reaseon I never joined the union.

As Mr. Hatcher and Mr. Steele have pointed out, it is the musician's decision to accept or deny the "benefit pacage." The union should not make that an option. It should be mandatory that every member of the union have all the benefits they have to offer and include the cost for the package in the yearly/monthly/weekly fees. As I said befor ...who really givs a ....

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kd...and the beat goes on...

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 28 Dec 2003 12:37 pm

I hear ya', Jim! Like you, I'm happy to be where I am.

Sorry if what I said above sounds a little puffed-up. I was feeling my oats when I wrote it yesterday

Clyde Mattocks, who is arguably the best steel player in our fair state (there are a bunch of good 'uns), has headed up the excellent Super Grit Cowboy Band for the past 30 years. During the country-rock boom of the 70's, everybody thought that Super Grit would move to Nashville and make it big... and I'm convinced that they could've. But they made an intentional choice to make eastern NC their home and to do what they could from here. More than 30 years later, Clyde and his boys are still playing a good deal and making great music. There's a lot to be said for "blooming where you're planted".

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 28 Dec 2003 2:04 pm

Boy, Rick, John, Jim and others. Great comments.

Maybe that explain a little of the silence from some of the "top end". Just a little of it though.

I have ALWAYS made more than Local 99 Scale here in Portland when playing in any club. We used to snicker the now pres of it ( I think) out telling him to drop off his "benefit package info" and we'd read it. I didn't se "health care" or "retirement" anywhere in it, so I never did more than skim.

My rule of thumb is if theres NO money being exchanged to the proprietor of a club or organization, then I will consider donating. So far Jerry's kids, and the Shriners Benefits are the only ones I've ever played for free. No "showcases". No more than one set "auditions". The Oregon State Prison gigs I did in the 80s were the only ones I did "gratis" in case I ever ended up there and needed a big straight friend. It was worth the "insurance"..
Ditto for "bandleaders". I don't buy their PAs. Gas for their vans, Photographers for their promo packs, recording time for their demo sessions, advertisements or other. Not when it cuts into wages of under 100$ a man gigs. If I need to pay to play, or work for less than 50$ ( a pitiful amount) then I need to go home and practice until I am good enough not to need to. If a band leader wants to make "more than indivudual band members" they need to get gigs where the players can afford to give it to him/her. That's their incentive.

Anyhow, Larry Behm and I were talking about the "bloom where you are planted" thing the other day.

My self excepted for my own reasons, I can go out and hear ANY "record lick" from Larry, Ray, Doug, Pete, Harley, Robin, Dale, or Ron on any given week. I know that they're making MORE than Union Scale. (I think it's still less then $50 for a five piece.) They don';t (obviously) have to mince words about what kind of guitar they like or don't what artist they like or don't, what their politics and/or religion is or isn't, and all that I know own their own homes, or at least their cars. Some even own airplanes, and 20k$ harleys. All of them that I know make more at their "day jobs" than the full band makes. The only time they eat chili cheese fries is when they stop at the fast food joint on their way home. You can play Midnite in Amarillo three times a night if you want to, You can play the steel part for Right or Wrong right, OR wrong, and you wont get bounced. You can dress as well as you want, and some jergoff show director isn't going to jam a beat up straw hat on your head and tell you to "hick up" or "play down" for a gig.

It IS a noble calling, and a poor profession as somebody mentioned.

My dream, was at one point LONG ago, to meet and talk with Ernest Tubb, and play in a band like Hank Thompson's. Both those dreams were realised long ago.

Now it's just to be able to play as much as I want to, if not a little more. This last couple years, when I was forced to fall back on my playing to "get gigs" for money, thanks to ALL of our individual efforts at keeping wages up, and possibly my having more time to "get my chops back" it was there for me. I've been able to make more work than I've taken as well.

Thanks to my persistance, and my friends, I'm able to do that.

I't nice to know that hundreds of guys in "little burgs" acros the WORLD from Philly to Pomona, Amsterdam to Perth, are similarly blessed, and have similar opinons of [Our Thing.

Fraternal Order.

I like that...

EJL

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 28 Dec 2003 3:55 pm

John,

Once again--the most organized, most "everyone in the same boat" groups of musicians are the ones that are making the most money now. Symphony players, recording musicians, theatre pit players etc.--THEY have banded together and dug in and bargained for better conditions and wages and have them.

These guys you are talking about don't organize for squat. They go out work for $20 a night and then you blame the union?!? As long as people will scab for $20 a night then that is what they deserve. As a union rep, I do not remember one time in my life where I called a player on the phone and then went over to his house and loaded up his gear for him and drove him to a gig that only paid $20 a night. HE did that himself and if he is too dumb to realize that a club owner will let him work for that for next 100 years then he deserves what he gets. If a club owner can't get players for $20 a night then he will pay more. Stupid is as stupid does.

Here in Atlanta we got together and voted out all the work dues that the union used to collect on one nighter bands. There are so few steady 5 and 6 night a week gigs that those dues don't even come into play anymore. We set the pay scales for gigs at $50 an hour-----mind you that scale is LOWEST amount you can play for. You negotiate above scale, then good for you, but if you are hired by a union contractor then you get at least $50 per hour.

In the real world you compete with non union/professional musicians for gigs. They usually are guys with day gigs playing for fun or young kids who have nothing to lose. These are the guys who are driving down pay scales by providing cheap bands for clubowners and booking agents. If you cannot offer a client something better than this, then you don't deserve to make anymore money than the non union players.

Bottom line is that the one niter guys have all but negotiated away their niche in the music biz. The union can't do much for them but we sure don't do anything to harm them.

As far as Nashville is concerned, you better wish you had that guy back who would walk into a session and drag out the union guys doing scab session on the cheap. That is the only way you keep your scales up and some of the huge recording company monies coming in to the musicians who deserve it. Now a days, he would be running all over town all day long rounding up folks out of houses and garage studios where guys are playing for $50 a session who should be making more. You have no idea of what goes on at the national level between the union and the recording industry when contracts are negotiated for recording scales. The recording industry fights hard to pay as little as they have to. If they had their way, musicians wouldn't make any money at all.

We have a big Arts center here that is the umbrella board over the Atlanta Symphony. One year during union contract negotiations one of the board members who owned a big department store chain made the statement that he would never agree to pay musicians more money than he paid his truck drivers.
Duh! We educated him REAL fast!

Just my opinion.

Tommy Allison · Post by **Tommy Allison** » 28 Dec 2003 6:01 pm

We're supposed to get paid?????????????????

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 28 Dec 2003 6:08 pm

HE did that himself and if he is too dumb to realize that a club owner will let him work for that for next 100 years then he deserves what he gets. If a club owner can't get players for $20 a night then he will pay more. Stupid is as stupid does.

In the meantime , how does this musician, eat, pay for a place to live and have transportation so he can get out and look for all these wonderful jobs that you describe. More than likely they are already taken and nailed down by the Good Ole Boy network that is in every large Music town. High Ideals you have, but unfortunately they are a long way from reality.

These people I was talking about Weren't the trash of the earth, For the most part they were hard working Talented Country Musicians trying to get a start in Nashville. Most of them more talented than you would find in Atlanta, New Orleans, Chicago, or any other large market. As a matter of fact, one of them is today one of the top Session players in Nashville History and He has probably paid more in Union Dues that any one Session Player in Nashville. But first he had to pay another kind of dues and work in the trenches just like all the rest of us. I will not Put his name in this post because he is a friend and I have a tremendous amount of respect for him, but he posts often on this Forum and I imagine he is sitting back laughing at how I am going to get out of this one.

Well Sir, I am going going to say that to the letter of the law you are correct, but in reality, your Cavalier attitude disgusts me. Your attitude is what is wrong with The Musician's Union Today, yesterday and the day before. Sure Glad that I never tried working in Atlanta.

I guess that what you are telling is that the Union isn't interested in musicians until they become sucessful enough to be called Professionals. I think that you should look up the definition of Professional in your Websters Unabridged.

And While you have the Book open Look up Parasite, You just might see a picture of the President of some Union Local.

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 28 December 2003 at 06:14 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 28 Dec 2003 6:38 pm

If a club owner can't get players for $20 a night then he will pay more. Stupid is as stupid does.

Don't know how a person would duck that one...

I'll put it in truck driver terms. I revently worked as a "truck boss" for an 8 truck outfit hauling pavers and asphalt mix. I made more than Union Scale.

Problem was I was herding bums around, mostly lifelong union guys, retired, and more than willing to work for rat wages, and for free because "other guys were doing it". I quit because unlike the bums, I would not work on Govt Jobs for less than the Govt Wage. I also was not offered a raise in wages after a year.

After I quit my replacement wrecked the 120k 8 axle transfer I was driving, and another company was called in to replace my employer that didn't have as many unherdable bums working for it.

I don't know if he ever called me back, but I wouldn't go.

I AM a Rat. A Rat works for the wages HE (or she) gets through their OWN negotiation. Mine are ALWAYS above what comparable union workers get. I've done more for wage issues in the State of Washington in the last ten years than ANY union entity or rep, and in spite of both on a Prevailing Wage case involving asphalt delivery on Public Works Projects. WA Case L&I vs Sup Asph and Concrete Decision 27044-7-II. MY case.

A Scab on the other hand works CHEAPER than union workers AND works "in place of them" on disputed or picketed jobs.

I've NEVER worked as a scab, and I believe they traditionally are shot or beaten up.

I WILL cross a picket line, IF the union in question has ANY 'No Strike' clause workers working during a labor dispute. That type of union I have no respect for.

The FIRST time a Union Rep comes out of a Union Meeting with Management and has to report a lessening of wages, his car is traditionally set on fire and rolled on it's hood AFTER he is summarily fired by his or her constituency. There is no "Second Time".

When unions veered away from "tradition" I lost respect for those that did when it came to negotiation MY wages. If they negotiate a lowering of wages, they are worse than management. Merely something I will "put up with" if I "have to".

I HAVE been in fistfights and/or shoving matches over my wages. I have YET to see a union rep offer that kind of advocacy. If and when I do, I will become a wholehearted supported of that union.

Time to watch "Hoffa" again.....

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 28 December 2003 at 06:43 PM.]

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 28 Dec 2003 8:08 pm

Eric, I agree with you. It has been my experience that the only thing that management ripping off employees respond to is FORCE. It was the only way that unions were successful in the early days and needs to be brought back now more than ever. Otherwise working people including country musicians will continue to lose ground in our society.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 28 Dec 2003 9:31 pm

John,

A personal attack on someone that you are having a debate with is usually a sign of a total cave in.

I'm out of this.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 28 Dec 2003 11:58 pm

In a softening of my last post, I must admit that violence, or threats of it are not the best way to accomplish wage negotiations.

( ...muted music starts in background.........)

It is interesting how the Longshoremans Union have wages for a low skill full time dock worker (2000hrs /yr)approaching 100 THOUSAND dollars a year.

A full time union Cement truck drives in the Teamster's Union here can expect less than 30,000.

At Union Scale, for a five piece band member working every night,( 5 nites a week, 50 weeks a year), being $37.50 (what I remember it being here in #99) would be about 10 grand including tips.

I can tell you I'd never consider working on a dock without proper sponsorship. It'd be suicidal.

Cement truck drivers don't scare me much. I've crossed their picket lines before. I just remind them that their "brothers" in the same plant are under "no strike clauses". Haven't been beat up yet..

The only thing that scares me about Musicians Union scale jobs is how cheap they'll work.

There's definitely a relationship there somewhere...

(Actually, IF a club was picketed by #99 I would NOT cross the line for ANY reason, but in my 40 years in this town I don't remember ONE time that that ever happened.)

Hmm....

Things DO get a little heated about wage/union matters, and regardless it's Definitely "On Topic" of "Money in Country Music".

My opinion is that there is no money in it because there is no "Jimmy Hoffa" mentality.

Think it's "too corrupt", "too violent", "too insensitive"?

That's why people work for nothing nowadays.

Especially, but not limited to, Teamsters.

(.... music fades.....)

Jimmy, we hardly knew ye...

EJL

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 29 Dec 2003 2:15 am

A personal attack on someone that you are having a debate with is usually a sign of a total cave in.

I sort of thought you were done when you called most of the Steel Guitar players and other musicians I knew in Nashville Stupid.

I don't care to discuss this any further either

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 29 December 2003 at 02:28 AM.]

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 29 Dec 2003 8:00 am

Myron
Don't think you read the post correctly, other wise you wouldn't be agreeing with me. I'm Down on the club owners for what they do on Lower Broadway in Nashville, but I'm more incensed at the Union local there for allowing it to happen.
Regards
John[This message was edited by John Floyd on 29 December 2003 at 10:06 AM.]

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 29 Dec 2003 9:10 am

John, you speak the truth.