Gibson v PRS

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 24 Mar 2004 4:32 am

We do understand Erik. We don't care. When I buy a guitar, it's because I like the guitar and want to play it. Not so I can sell it on E-bay.

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 24 Mar 2004 5:20 am

I think people are not understanding my point. You can't sell a Rickenbacker(sp) knock-off on eBay. If Gibson decides to stop all sales of LP knock-offs on eBay and tells all their retailers not to sell any used knock-offs, and sends threatening letters to all music retailers about these knock-offs then the value of such guitars will plummet because you can not sell them anywhere except through word of mouth. This is what I'm talking about.

According to eBay's Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) Program policy you can't sell a Gibson or Fender or any copy/knock-off.
It's up to the company(Gibson,Fender,Rickenbacker,etc) to check auctions for violations.
Rickenbacker checks ebay daily for violations and lately Fender has been.

Fender has even been canceling auctions if they use words like "Tele Style Guitar" if it's not a real Fender, and auctions for Fender decals(which they say are illegal to buy or sell).

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 24 Mar 2004 6:43 am

I certaintly hope that Gibson is not a "dying" co. It would surely be a tragedy to see this industry icon fall. My interest was not to bash the Co. or speak to the quality of the instruments but more in the vein of Herb's and Alvin's replies. Michael H. makes a good point also. I certaintly support any Company's right to protect their trademark. I guess I was surprised more than anything. Didn't realize the rules have changed.
I'm old enough to remember the "asian invasion" when almost every major US builder was being "knocked off". Knowledgeable buyers and musicians could tell the difference, but the casual buyer might not understand the difference in pricing and quality. One of these "knock-off"s could be had for a mere pittance of the price paid for the real deal. Of course, some of the major labels imported some of their guitars.
The recent affiliation involving Guild, Gretsch and Fender got me to thinking.
I guess I've just gotten so used to the generic look of all products.appliances, automobiles, etc. that I was just surprised, that's all. As an aside, I have seen firsthand how price alone dictates lots of people's business dealings. Said fact one of the factors resulting in the recent closing of our family auto repair business. Folks need to realize a quality product/service is never cheap.
You can almost always find something cheaper but sometimes it COSTS more.
All this may have started long ago soon after Paul Bigsby built Merle Travis' solidbody axe, probably earlier than that.
Well, back to the job search.
[This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 24 March 2004 at 07:26 AM.]

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 24 Mar 2004 9:52 am

Knowledgeable buyers and musicians could tell the difference

That has changed. The quality of these imports has seriosuly improved. There was a time when the words Made in Korea or China meant garbage. Today they mean decent instruments that cost a fraction of their American counterparts.

I'm sure some garbage is still out there, but I've got some VERY nice guitars that have everything the American guitars do except the brand name

erik · Post by **erik** » 24 Mar 2004 3:15 pm

I like the auctions that have a knock-off strat with a "Fender pick". Now that's creative!

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 24 Mar 2004 4:21 pm

Gibson has been cryin foul and the blues since I was in grammar school..

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 24 Mar 2004 4:39 pm

Jody
Wonder Why Fender hasn't raised hell with G&L over their body shapes. They Probably didn't dare when Leo was alive, because that would have been the best advertisement that G&L could have gotten. As it is right now G&L is doing Ok with word of mouth advertising, because they build a better strictly stock guitar than The Fenders when a bunch of aftermarket parts have been installed on the Fenders to soup them up.

A good example is the MFD pickups in The G&L ASAT special. No Aftermarket company has been able to improve on them, But there are hundreds of Telecaster replacement pickups out there on the market, Some of them touted to get the "Vintage" sound of a 52 Tele. This is proof that Fender (CBS) screwed up Leo's original designs by tinkering with them. Only an idiot will attempt to fix something that isn't broken.

John P. Phillips · Post by **John P. Phillips** » 24 Mar 2004 8:23 pm

You tell em Jody, It's about time that the voice of authority spoke out !!!

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JUST 'CAUSE I STEEL, DON'T MAKE ME A THIEF

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 25 Mar 2004 8:14 am

Jody
Wonder Why Fender hasn't raised hell with G&L over their body shapes. They Probably didn't dare when Leo was alive....

Dont tempt me..Im dangerously close to legal action now...read my book and when all the legal issues are clear it will be simple and
not so sweet..You are on the Money David.

This may be a Forum where Freedom of speech is accepted,but I have to draw the line here.

Use your own imagination.

Regardless of what transpired after my leaving CBS Fender, I will always have the utmost respect for the original people who made Fender what it is today. Times have changed but they cant change the memories.

All of what I have read here deserves a round of applause from me to you. You are all
on top of everything that goes on. Amazing.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Mar 2004 8:53 am

Well, we don't want to be buying the Jody Carver Legal Defence Fund CD!

The, Send Jody and Marilyn out to dinner on the town CD, well I'll buy one now

There will always be a market for inexpensive instruments,
and always a classic collectors market.
Preventing sales in Ebay is not going to break any company.

Making very close copies of someone elses designs might. But they will have to be clearly exact, like some I saw years ago unless you saw the name or looked close it was a Les Paul.
But I don't remember any suits because the quailty was so low only 13 year olds were buying them.

But at this point, so many guitars are so close in general design,
ANY luthier could be sueable for making a guitar that a person can actually play, because someone has already done something in a similar style.
Which puts it into genral public domain or fair usage of a common form.

The general form of an electric guitar has been done to death. And is now in common usage world wide. A specific logo, or a head stock copy might be actionable.
When you see F-model mandolin copies, there is a definite difference in headstock.

This is why I think it was a poor legal decision, by a non-musician or at least non guitar player.

This is likely not the end of this court battle. Depends on the depth of the pockets involved.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 March 2004 at 08:56 AM.]

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 25 Mar 2004 9:53 am

Im ROTFLMAO about Jussi's comments regarding
Paul Bigsby and Merle Travis....funny as it may sound,when MusicMan started up, CBS had the name "Leo" copyrighted so that Leo could never use his name in conjunction with any of MusicMan's products such as the "Leo Bass"
or "Leo Amp Blaster".

I have copyrighted my name and Fender can never employ anyone with my name

Like Mike Perlowin always asks me.."Why Did Leo Fender leave MusicMan"? How do I know,I told him he was late one morning and he up and walked out. Actually Leo left because dealers complained that they didnt want salesman showing up with their pants off.

edited to find my pants.[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 25 March 2004 at 09:55 AM.]

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 25 Mar 2004 12:34 pm

Send Jody and Marilyn out to dinner on the town CD, well I'll buy one now

Me too!!!

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 25 Mar 2004 1:36 pm

I just copyrighted the phrase "six-string." Please send me all your money.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 25 Mar 2004 1:40 pm

Mee Too Who?
What are you John? a chinaman ?? Mee Too??...

Pertaining to Mike Perlowins question "why did Leo Fender leave Music Man...

I asked Leo if he knew Carl West and Roy Ayres and Leo mumbled something like.."what"
Those two bull critters...at least it sounded
like that.

Hey dont get me wrong..I have nothing against the chinese people...some of the chinese steel players I met were great
They always had the right slant on things .[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 25 March 2004 at 01:41 PM.]

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 25 Mar 2004 2:18 pm

I once asked Leo if he knew Jody Carver and Leo mumbled something like.."What? You mean that ugly yankee?" ...at least it sounded
like that.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 25 Mar 2004 3:23 pm

Dammed Rebel ..cant get ahead of you.

Where's Carl?? walking his cat?
He's just as bad as you,,you rednecks are all the same..

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 26 Mar 2004 1:05 am

Now don't we all agree, that a Gibson Les Paul resembles more than a lot the famous Travis Bigsby solidbody. Ted McCarthy designed the Les Paul and then later bought the Bigsby company. Too bad he didn't sue Gibson for using his company's ( Bigsby ) design for a guitar, which he himself had done while working for Gibson. Or maybe he should have sued himself just to show how ridiculous these things can get

Or maybe now that Fender owns Bigsby, they should sue Gibson, or... Oh, what the heck...

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 26 Mar 2004 5:37 am

So, Jody, Why did Leo Fender leave Music Man?

BTW, I think his Music Man Saber with active electronics is the best guitar he ever built. It's a real shame it is no longer being made.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 26 Mar 2004 6:06 am

Jussi
Fender does not own Bigsby. The Bigsby Co. is in the hands of Fred Gretsch Jr., who seems to still be in the picture, though I don't know to what extent he still owns part of the original Gretsch Company. From what I've heard, Fender only bought PART of the holdings of Gretsch, excluding ShoBud and Bigsby. I understand Fender now owns the trademark "Broadcaster," and probably distribution rights to a lot of the popular guitars Gretsch makes.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 26 Mar 2004 10:19 am

Herbster,
Oh ok, I thought they bought the whole deal, I stand corrected! ( actually I meant to say "yeah, whatever..." har-har!!

)

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 27 Mar 2004 1:36 am

Gibson Builds a Quality instrument, but they aren't the same quiality they used to be in the 50's. I hate to see them cheapening their line by offering similar Epiphone models. They have just about trashed the Epiphone name in their efforts to build a Cheaper Gibson[This message was edited by John Floyd on 27 March 2004 at 01:42 AM.]

Bill Carpenter · Post by **Bill Carpenter** » 29 Mar 2004 10:10 am

I have about 8 guitars in my arsenal. There are several different brands. They all play very well and all sound great. They one other thing that they all have in common is that none of them ever learned how to read the name on the headstock.

As for the lawsuit against PSR by Gibson, well PRS should be suing Gibson for even hinting that their fine instrument remotely resembled that Gibson over rated piece of timber.

Gibson should concentrate on building a better guitar, instead of trying to choke out the competition.

Can I sue Gibson? They built a factory that resembles my house. I mean it has 4 walls and a roof just like my house which I owned before they built they factory.

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 29 Mar 2004 11:58 pm

Can I sue Gibson? They built a factory that resembles my house. I mean it has 4 walls and a roof just like my house which I owned before they built they factory.

First you have to Trademark the shape of your house. After that gets aproved then you can go after them.

Tim Hurst · Post by **Tim Hurst** » 7 Apr 2004 5:10 pm

At the Dallas show, Peavey had in their room a 335-style guitar that was pretty nice. It was an import, but had flamed maple top, bound f-holes and peghead, large block position markers, and knockoff Grover butterfly style keys. I ordered a red one and got it today. Played it for about an hour and it feels better than my 70's 335. Retail is $399, I got mine for $299. I did have to shake some sawdust out of the f-holes, however.

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 7 Apr 2004 6:45 pm

Come to think of it, the Emmons guitar is shaped remarkably like the Sho-Bud... rectangular body, four legs, ten strings. Some even have the lacquer finish. Egad! It's a knockoff.