Vroom Vroom Vroom

Auset Sarno · Post by **Auset Sarno** » 15 Sep 2004 10:17 am

Oh, my... tsk, tsk on such hatefully charged blind assumptions and personal attacks.

I do believe that at one point, this thread was titled "vroom, vroom, vroom".. Now vroom on back to your steels - certainly a more constructive use of time.

Auset

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 15 Sep 2004 10:20 am

Your Euro weenie buddies like the French and the Germans and others won't support us because they have become such pitiful little socialistic shells of nothing of substance. They are so envious of America that they can't stand ANYTHING we do whether it is right or wrong. I guess in a pathological way, Europe suffers American "penis envy".

Ok, that's it, I tried to stay out of this but this is too much. As a European I find this EXTREMELY offending, and must be some of the ugliest piece of crap I've read in a long long time.
I don't care aboput republicans or democrats, they all look pretty much alike to me, so I won't get into that debate, but statements like the one above pisses me off BIG TIME.

"Penis envy"? Well, the country I live in has been named the #1 country in the world regarding standards of living by the UN (which I wouldn't be surprised if you consider a 'terrorist organization') 4 years in a row, so I surely don't have anything to be envious about. The US was number..... let's see... 12? 15? I don't remember, but no,- I'm not envious.

From a furious Norwegian

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www.gregertsen.com

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 15 Sep 2004 10:21 am

So Brad, are you gutsy enough to tell us if you are voting for John Kerry or not.

Do we really need to start with this? C'mon...

Anyone with some intellect can decipher truth from fiction....and will be able to see pros AND cons for BOTH parties and their nominees....and the pros and cons for each are just about equal. And I ain't just saying this....the two candidates have pretty much split the nationwide vote in every poll since Kerry was named the nominee.

Here's a tip, though.....if you want to try to persuade someone to vote for the candidate you like, DON'T start spewing negatives about their candidate. That's a sure-fire way to have them block out anything else you say. Rather, make a good argument about why the guy you like SHOULD be voted for....and most importantly, keep an open mind when a response is given. Remember....both candidates have their plusses and minuses, so no one is really "right" here.

Onto the other comments,Bill, you owe Roger, and all our European Forumites, an apology. Your remarks were way out of line and uncalled for. Remember...we live in a global society. We can't pretend like we live in a shell over here...we need other countries in the world to share the duties of keeping democracy alive. If a whole score of countries feel we are acting inappropriately, then perhaps rather than just saying that they are a bunch of "weenies" we should instead ask ourselves what do they see that we don't....is war really justified? And let's be honest....our country was just as divided then as it is now as to whether war was justified or not. It's not that "we" were for it and "they" were against it. They just chose not to get involved....and if half the Americans had their say, we wouldn't have gone over there either (except to find bin Laden, that is).

Joe[This message was edited by Joe Alterio on 15 September 2004 at 11:24 AM.]

Auset Sarno · Post by **Auset Sarno** » 15 Sep 2004 10:26 am

Auset

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 15 Sep 2004 10:34 am

And I still agree with the very first post in this thread!

And here's the candidate that I am not ashamed to support each and every day:

[This message was edited by Joe Alterio on 15 September 2004 at 11:40 AM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 15 Sep 2004 10:45 am

I will not dignify Bill Hatcher's remarks with a reply. He condemns himself out of his own mouth.

RR

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 15 Sep 2004 12:25 pm

I tried to stay out of this one too, but...

Vroom Vroom Vroom is a simple parody with, like any parody, one purpose - to make people laugh. I don't think anybody involved with writing, recording, or distributing it would claim that it is art.

Sometimes you guys make me laugh. You say Toby Keith is "a rude and ignorant person"... "TK continues to plumb new depths with each release"... "he's exploiting the current situation shamelessly"... on and on. Then, you want to take sides and defend politicians, most of which are lawyers. Think about it!

I don't care aboput republicans or democrats, they all look pretty much alike to me, so I won't get into that debate, but statements like the one above pisses me off BIG TIME.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Net even in English

Steinar, please accept my apology for what my fellow American said about Europeans. Someday I'd like to visit your country.

Don

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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it! ~ Yogi Berra

[This message was edited by Don Joslin on 15 September 2004 at 02:45 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 Sep 2004 12:51 pm

Never argue politics with a musician, or religion. It's not what they are qualified for.

But, um, guys, TK is an entertainer in a pop/commercial medium. As such, he's not too bad, and I Love This Bar is a nice good-time honky-tonk song. Course, the Dixie Chicks are way better lookin'.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 15 Sep 2004 1:29 pm

Steinar, please accept my spologies for what my fellow American said about Europeans.

No problem,- fortunately I have enough American friends to know better than to take his statement as representative of all Americans.

I'm also painfully aware that ignorance and prejudice knows no borders and can be found everywhere.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 15 September 2004 at 03:07 PM.]

Auset Sarno · Post by **Auset Sarno** » 15 Sep 2004 1:30 pm

Good vibe Don! ... when the world is so heavy already, gotta do what we can to keep it light.

Auset

Terry VunCannon · Post by **Terry VunCannon** » 15 Sep 2004 4:17 pm

Steinar....I am proud to call you a friend!!!

Terry V

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Sep 2004 3:49 am

Steinar.

You yourself have cast doubt on the UN by your statement that I just might consider it a "terror" organization.

In as much as the rating of your country by the UN as some sort of #1 haven in the world to live---this is the same UN that deemed that Libya was a country that ranked high enough in the pecking order of wonderfulness to serve on the UN human rights committee. This is the same UN that under Kofi A. has stolen MILLIONS of dollars under the corrupt "Oil for Food" program in Iraq. I noticed that your friend Kofi this morning called the so called "invasion" of Iraq illegal, while making no reference to UN resolution #1441. Look at what the UN has done in Dafur. Prime Minister Howard of Australia this morning labled your vaulted UN as just being "paralyzed". It is nothing but a corrupt, communist ideal entity that we pay no attention to when it comes to important matters of US policy,security and independance. Norway has voiced its non support for America in the war against Islamic terror worldwide. You side with the islamic jerks.

I have nothing against you or Norway and to be fair I did some research on you guys. You are a socialist leaning country taking 50% of income from your citizens in direct tax and value added tax. You need to take some of that money and build an isolation ward in your hospital in Olso. Seems the immigrants are coming in there and spreading TB and such and your health care system is not adequate to handle it. I also found on some internet searches that Norway is the world leader in casual sex. That is probably why your buddy Kofi likes Norway so much. 7 out of 10 people in Norway have a casual sex partner and yet in a poll of world countries Norway ranked 29th as to the population being content with their sex life. Have lot's of sex--give half your money to the government......."good trade" as our Indians used to say.

I have been to your country and played music there years ago. I took a bus trip from Oslo to Bergen. Looked like Nevada in a deep freeze! The people were extremely nice but what is with all those goofy little miniature sandwich things you people live on!!???!?!?!? I unloaded a Fender Amp and when the local Norway musicians saw it, they almost had a fit. They had never seen one in person!! It was also very fitting to hear them singing all the American pop tunes in perfect English. I am trying my best to remember the last time I went into a club in America and heard our musicians singing in your language. I am sure that things are different now in Norway than when I was there. You can fill us in if you like.

My reply to you is a result of your inference that your country is so great as a result of your ranking above the US in your hallowed UN poll. Wonder why the UN buiding is in New York instead of your country?? I wish it was.

I so love a good discussion like this. Please keep it coming and keep it at least decently civil.

Bob Smith · Post by **Bob Smith** » 16 Sep 2004 4:04 am

Amen, Dave D. I feel the same way. Bob

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Sep 2004 4:18 am

Rettig.

You can't undignify my remarks. The amount of French and German made weaponry and chemical warfare equipment already found in Iraq dignifies it. This stuff was sold to Iraq during the UN weapons sanctions period in direct violation and the whole world knows it. The French and the Germans were stabbing us in the back. No wonder they don't support us.

Don't you just love Tony Blair. He is my fav world leader right behind Pres. Bush. Huge cojons this Blair fellow has!!!
I love to watch the Parlament goings on on the tele here. They all sit around in a big oval and Blair sits at his seat with this big book. All the debators stand up and yell at him good and bad things and he stands up with the big book and walks to his little podium and gives his spendid retort and then sits back down being ever so cool. What is in that big book?????

I have also traveled and played music in your country years ago. I remember being in London for two weeks and never one time seeing or having been offered a drink with ice in it. Do you folks have some aversion for cold beverages?? I did so much enjoy visiting Oxford U. and buying lots of guitar music in the University book store.

I noticed that you live in Naples. I have visited and played music in your wonderful city which seems to be dependant on the evil rich people that come there for retirement and investment. I played in a jazz group at a couple of clubs there. There are several musicians from my area that have moved down there. One is a wonderful jazz pianist named Joel Benefiel. He probably plays over at the Ritz. Worth hearing. Another is a booking agent named William Noll (Mayfair Artist Agency). Call him and drop my "undignified" name and send him the promo on yourself and any groups you are associated with and maybe some work can come of it for you.

Since you have made some references to playing theatre shows, as your fellow "brother in arms in a pit" I will tell you of a very nice opportunity that has come up for me here in Atlanta. The movie/book "The Color Purple" is being made into a Broadway show and is being produced here. The last show I did like this was the Elton John/Tim Rice show "Aieda". After being produced here, it played on Broadway for 6 years. I hope the producers and actors have the same result with this incarnation. Jonathan Tunick is the orchestrator and he has been here for the last month. Heavy weight cat! Likes guitar. I am actually playing some lap steel stuff on a flat top to simulate the bottleneck sound they were looking for.

Hope you will take a cue from Blair and speak right up here!

Bob Hickish · Post by **Bob Hickish** » 16 Sep 2004 4:20 am

TK & Hank Williams
check out Hanks " NO NO Joe "

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 16 Sep 2004 5:23 am

Norway has voiced its non support for America in the war against Islamic terror worldwide.

Rubbish. We refused to support the invasion of Iraq, but I won't bother going into a discussion with you about that since I believe this is a music related forum. There are plenty of other places to dicuss this.

You are a socialist leaning country taking 50% of income from your citizens in direct tax and value added tax.

For your information we have a conservative coalition government, made up by our major conservative party (not unlike the more moderate part of your republicans) and our christian/conservative party. Doesn't sound very 'socialist' to me. As for our taxes,- that's a myth that keep coming up. FYI I pay about 20% in direct tax, and yes there's also many indirect taxes. On the other hand most medical care is free except for a small percentage, nobody here needs health insurances, unlike in the US where 45 million people are without insurance and will have a hard time if/when they get ill. Just one example, you see, those money we pay in taxes don't go to some greedy corrupt 'communist' system, we actually do get benefits from them.

It was also very fitting to hear them singing all the American pop tunes in perfect English.

Yep, our school system actually works, so we learn something here. English is one of the languages we pride ourselves of being good at,- makes it easier to communicate with people from other parts of the world, if you know what I mean....

I unloaded a Fender Amp and when the local Norway musicians saw it, they almost had a fit. They had never seen one in person!!

Yeah right. Strange then that REAL musicians like Chick Corea and Pat Metheny, to name a few, have insisted on recording several of their albums here since we're such a thirld world country.... And since the sight of a Fender amp made us breathless when you were here centuries ago, I guess you're the one to thank for me getting my first Fender amp and guitar in '73....

Look,- unlike you I've never claimed that my country is 'perfect', but I believe we could go on forever if we were to engage in a pissing match about which has the most pros and cons. My point is that there's no reason for us to be 'envious'. America is a great country but you're not the garden of eden, just like Norway and many other countries of this world. A little humility goes a long way, Bill......

You side with the islamic jerks.

Once again you're so outrageous and insulting that I don't see any reason to continue wasting any time on you and your condescending arrogant crap (pardon my french).

Over and out.
Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 16 September 2004 at 06:36 AM.][This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 16 September 2004 at 06:37 AM.]

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Sep 2004 5:58 am

Steiner.

Please note the word "leaning" after the word "socialist". Take heart, we are becoming more socialist every day.

Sorry, but in pulling your soldiers out of Iraq you have capitulated to the islamic jerks. Are you still in Afghanistan? Seems that I remember reading that Norway felt that country was better served with their presence.

FYI English has indeed become the worlds' most important language and that is why it is studied worldwide. This is not to elevate or denegrate any language.

Sorry you are taking your ball and running home. Please don't. I still need to know about those little sandwiches!

I never infered that you were a third world nation and yes the ECM label is pretty cool. Wasn't it's founder and famed producer Manfred Eicher German??

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Sep 2004 7:41 am

Mr Hatcher... with all due respect, you have no clue about the true feelings of most europeans vis a vis americans as individuals or the USA as a country.
Nor about the workings and motivations of their societies.

Norway is consistantly rated as one of the 2-3 best places to live in the world. And is also considered to have an extremely friendly and open minded citizenry.

You also note that ECM's founder is of German heritage, but I will note that Norway was occupied during the war and the word Quisling for collaborator comes from that land also. Similar to Vichey over here.
The population in general didn't like those that coillaborated, and quietly fought against the invaders when they could. And punished them afterwards.

So since I sense a distinct implied bias in the ECM comment,
I posit that if any place as the right to accept a german again it would be Norway. They've earned that right.

Ever been there..? I doubt it.

Norway is in support on the 'War on Terrorism",
but not in ALL the ways it is being fought. In particular the Iraq invasion.
As a country that has been in recent memory invaded and subjugated by another country,
they have also earned the right to not agree with this happening to any other country.

They also take care of the less fortunate and is a place where "no child left behind" truely is acted on, and not in name only.
One of the reasons Norway has been judged the best place to live for a second year running. Based on imperical data and not nationalistic biases.

Now none of the above, nor my present place of residence, should be construed as being anti-american.
I love the USA.. BIG TIME, but that doesn't mean I am willing to sugar coat it's faults either.
Or vote purely on jingoistic pandering to my worst fears.
I'll vote on LOGIC based on a big picture view of the USA in the world as a whole. Nothing more nothing less.

I also was apalled at how Brad was treated on this thread. He is one of the nicest and smartest people I have met on this forum. A real thinker and a kind hearted, generous person.

Why is there never a line drawn between the man or woman on the front lines, and the people on the top who send them in harms way, for often less than savory reasons?

If you diagree with the ones on top, or their reasoning for war or using force,
then you are too often accused of being against the little guys doing the dangeous work on the ground.
IT JUST AIN'T SO.

You can easily be 110% for our troups, and 100% against why they are doing it.
And most times the later is not a black or white, cut and dried logic,
but this amourphous gray area, always changing.

The world isn't black or white,
and RIGHT can have repercusions that are also WRONG,
and visa versa.
It is a nuanced juggling of all these interlocking factors
based on a flexable reading of facts as they are known at any given moment in time,
and the abilty to change as the facts change, that is needed in the halls of power at any time, and more so in times of danger.
Not a blind rote adherence to one theory or another.

So you can disagree about the decision making process and still FULLY support those who carry out the decisions.
This is not a dichotomy nor un-patriotic. it is the highest form of patriotism :
doing the best you can at any moment in time for your country.

Back to the original topic, that song. I saw it on CMT last week in Nashville.
I love NASCAR too, but that song... well,
yeah it was a bit like watching a train wreck or passing a 5 car pileup on the freeway.
You can't look away while passing by.

A total sell out, well maybe not, I am sure they do love NASCAR, and some of it certainly was funny.
It did do a fine send up of much of that little world.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 September 2004 at 09:28 AM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 16 Sep 2004 8:38 am

Are you still in Afghanistan?

Yes, and Norwegian soldiers, as well as aid workers, has been killed and/or wounded there.

Wasn't it's founder and famed producer Manfred Eicher German??

Yes, and engineer Jan Erik Kongshaug and his Rainbow Studio in Oslo has played a huge part in creating that special 'ECM' sound.
You will find the Kongshaug/Rainbow combination credited on the majority of ECM records, since it is Eicher's favorite place to record. Quite a few international artists outside of the ECM label also choose to work with Kongshaug in Rainbow Studio.

Or was your point in mentioning the 'German' connection politically motivated? Do you really think we still hold a grudge against the Germans?

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 16 September 2004 at 09:40 AM.][This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 16 September 2004 at 09:42 AM.]

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Sep 2004 8:52 am

David. If you had read my replies you will see that your little quip about whether I have ever been to Norway or not is just what it is...a nasty little ditty. Now why would you surmise that I had never been to Norway by making such a statement? For your information I stopped at a little place on a glacier out in the no mans land in Norway one afternoon. I was able to purchase a fine USA inspired CocaCola there.

The rest of your remarks are VERY worthwhile and add merit to this discussion. I personally appreciate them.

In regards to Brad, I know nothing about him except he directed a personal attack on someone else that I also did not know much about by labeling that person as a "Warmonger". Now that is a VERY serious thing to call someone at this time. In investigating this country star I found his statement to be totally unmerited.

What I have said about the Euro "Axis of Weasels" is substantiated by hard document evidence. Do a Google search on it and you will find out just how sleazy the country that is under your name here on the Forum has acted in its secret dealings with Saddam and how they have tried to thwart any good we have tried to do in Iraq. The French are pretty worthless as far as I am concerned. Maybe they should all be forced marched out to the cemetery at Normandy and made to read the names of EVERY American soldier on every grave marker there. That might shame them into realizing just how pathetic their actions have been.

I presume you are living in France and I have no need to make the same style of quip that you did. Do they have just as slanted media coverage as we do here?

You may not have seen the latest garbage going on here with CBS. Seems someone sent them some forged documents trashing Bush's national guard record and now they are saying that even though the documents are forged, what they meant to say is what is most important!! How pitiful.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Sep 2004 9:13 am

edit: For Steiner.

Oh no sir!!! No negative slant at all in regards to Eicher. Just thought that it would be full disclosure to let folks know that the master mind behind the ECM name that was mentioned by you in reference to the recorded work coming out of Norway was not from Norway and that he was a German.

In regards to Norway holding a grudge against the Germans, I would never have insinuated that at all. Nazi leaders were real "warmongers" and had an agenda not too much unlike the islamic terrorists.

My Norway history is not as good as I would like for it to be, but any history buff can testify to what Norway suffered under the VERY large contingent of German troops in Norway during the war. One thing noteworthy about your country is how quickly after the end of the war that your economy returned to pre war levels, something like 3 or 4 years.

I sure hope that those ABBA folks weren't from Norway.

Now what about those sandwiches!!!

[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 16 September 2004 at 10:15 AM.]

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 16 Sep 2004 9:30 am

Yeah Steinar, what's the deal with all that casual sex? You better move over here where, at age 20, 12% of our men and 16% of our women are still virgins. In your country it's 25% and 33% respectively. There ain't no casual sex over here!

Steinar, you can be safe here too. Our murder rate is only four times that of your country.

Yes Steinar, you should move to a "free" country like America where under the authority of the Patriot Act, the government is empowered to wiretap phone calls of citizens, trace their online records, and read their private mail and e-mail. The FBI is even empowered to keep a watch on people's reading habits and check booklists of what people borrow from libraries to judge their political position. Come on Steinar, move over here to a "free" country where the percentage of the population serving time in prisons remains the highest in the world. The number of inmates in the United States exceeded 2.1 million in 2002, with a current increase of 2.6% per year, according to the statistical figures released by the Department of Justice in July 2003. The jails nationwide receive 700 new inmates every week in the U.S. where 701 out of every 100,000 people are in prison according to the Washington Post on July 28, 2003. I don't even want to think about what that costs.

Steinar, America is a capitalist country where you can become "rich". You have to take advantage of this opportunity where, according to a 2003 report by the Office of Management and Budget, the US Congress acknowledged that the gap between the rich and the poor in the country today is wider than anytime in nearly 70 years, with the richest one percent of the population exceeding the entire net worth of the needy, who account for 40% of the total population. According to statistics from the 2003 economic report by the US Census Bureau, the impoverished population in the United States has been increasing, reaching 34.6 million, or 12.1% of the total population. Yeah Steinar, come on over to a place where we pay our public servants, professional athletes, and movie stars more that we pay our farmers, teachers, and doctors.

Since 2001, the number of needy families in the United States has only been growing at 6% per year, and there are now 7.3 million impoverished families in the country, which means 31 million people in America are facing the threat of hunger. But hey, we're the richest country in the world!

According to a report released by the US Census Bureau in September 2003, the number of Americans without health insurance climbed by 5.7% over 2001, to reach 43.6 million in 2002, the largest single increase in a decade. According to the Washington Post on Sept. 30, 2003, 15.2% of Americans were uninsured in 2002 and I'm one of them!.

Mr. Hatcher, this just goes to show you that statistics can be manipulated anyway you like. Don't get me wrong, I love my country, support it's troops serving abroad, and I believe in our ability to solve problems. I am truly APPALLED by 9/11 and the other terrorist atrocities committed against our homeland. However, I'm gonna offer you you a piece of advice that my dear departed mother left with me. Before you start complaining about what your neighbor smells like you better take a bath first!

Don

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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it! ~ Yogi Berra

[This message was edited by Don Joslin on 16 September 2004 at 10:36 AM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 16 Sep 2004 9:33 am

Bill,- I didn't bring up ECM, you did. I mentioned a few artists that has enjoyed recording here, as well as collaborating with Norwegian musicians, wihtout any regards to the record company.
As for the 'mastermind' stuff, yes, Eicher is of course the mastermind behind the ECM story, but he himself is the first to aknowledge Kongshaug and his studio's important role in creating that success.

ABBA was from Sweden, but what's the story with those sandwiches? These days all we eat here is BigMacs and "fine USA inspired Coca Cola".........

Steinar[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 16 September 2004 at 10:46 AM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 16 Sep 2004 9:54 am

Don and David,- thanks!
I never intended this to be about Norway vs the US, but the combination of ignorance and arrogance is like waving a red flag in my face.
I'll now creep back to my underdeveloped studio and continue working on my totally irrelevant music, which in no way is inspired by American music and its African and European roots........

Peace
Steinar

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Sep 2004 10:04 am

Don. Good post!

In regards to health care. It is not the job of the government to give you health care. It is the responsiblity of the the individual to provide your own health care. The mindset in America now is that somehow healthcare is a RIGHT! Read your constitution. There is no such right there. Having said that, if you are indigent or poor here you are privy to the absolute best health care in the world. You can just waltz right into ANY emergency room in America you will be treated or the hospital can be held liable. I am a working stiff musician. My bill every month for a half ass health insurance policy for my family is $493 a month. If you don't have health insurance, that is your choice, not the fault of the gov.

Now in regards to what is a "Poor person" in America. You can own 10 houses and 10 cars and whatever else and if on paper your tax records show that your income was less than a certain amount, then you are catagorized a "poor person". Talk about slanting stats. That all got started under LBJ when he needed stats and numbers to get his "great society" legislation through. There was never a cut off number to catagorize who was exactly poor and has never been a true indicator of what is and is not a poor person in our country.

I would like to know what the murder stats would be like if you factored out drug related killings among minorities in America.

In regards to bathing, no one bathes less that the French do!