Why are drummers always too loud?

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 12 Jul 2004 8:10 pm

Maybe it's the town I live in(Los Angeles)or maybe I'm just lucky but I can't remember the last time I played with a problem drummer. I guess there's so many musicians in L.A. that bad ones don't get very far up the totem pole.Of course that doesn't mean the kid bashing away down the block isn't gonna give me a headache - but at least I give him credit for trying to play a real instrument and not rapping along with a drum machine that somebody else programmed. -MJ-

Al Udeen · Post by **Al Udeen** » 12 Jul 2004 9:15 pm

I've heard some drummers that belong in a cardboard box.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 12 Jul 2004 9:17 pm

In NYC I've been lucky also. The drummers tend to be great and real fun to play music with. The monster drummers that come out of the jazz scene here have total control of there volume. They can groove hard and steady and be playing at speaking levels.

Bob

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 12 Jul 2004 9:42 pm

.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 08:18 PM.]

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 13 Jul 2004 3:22 am

Our former drummer, Joe Tigilie, was a big band drummer, to include a stint with Stan Kenton, and any one who thinks Rock is loud has never been on the dance floor with the Kenton band blasting away. Joe always adjusted his volume to the band he was with and above all Joe had a SOUND. Most drummers just keep time; hopefully. Our loss was Ariz gain. I can't remember what city he is in but any of you that want a fine drummer to any kind of music can call Enterprise Car Rentals and find out.

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 13 Jul 2004 4:26 am

Glen mad an interesting point about a female drummer. However I played at a church that the piano player was a real skinny woman. She could get more volume from a piano than any man I have ever seen. I also played a singing one night where I video taped it. The man that helped set up the sound was the drummer for one of the groups. He was young but an excellent drummer. When I got home I was surprised. He had my steel sounding great from the mains but you had to struggle to hear it. There was no problem hearing the drums. He made sure the drums were too loud in the mix. There has been comments on this forum before about sound men being musicians which is not a bad idea. Sometimes they lean toward what they are playing and not a good overall mix for the band.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 13 Jul 2004 4:42 am

I have played with some very controled and very tasty drummers.

The main culpret with most drummers is just plain lack of technique...
The second is good taste.

As a bassplayer one of my best compliments for a drummer is

I didn't even think about you all night except in your solo, you were just with me and it felt good.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 13 July 2004 at 05:43 AM.]

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 13 Jul 2004 4:42 am

I have the joy of playing with probably the two best drummers in central NC. Volume is never a problem with them. They both adapt to any situation with ease, and they can play quietly and still keep their intensity and hold the tempo.

Both of these guys are musicians, not just drummers. They have studied, and they can read.

Of course, I've experienced "the other kind" too. I'm just thankful for the present situation!

Rick

------------------
Rick McDuffieSho-Bud Pro I, Marlen Speedy West, Fender Telecaster Custom, Strat, Gibson Les Paul Deluxe
Rick's Music Photo Gallery
www.tarheelmusic.com

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 13 Jul 2004 5:27 am

A PA System is supposed to be a Public Address system for announcements and vocals and shouldn't be confused with a SRS or Sound Reinforcement System. I don't think a SRS is necessary in a Small Venue, just a PA System.

Maybe we should get back to basics and let the band handle the mix. There has to be a leader in the band to call the shots on balance.

If you need a slight boost for the band, go to zone miking with mic's suspended from the overhead. Small Venues don't need bass and drums miked.

I've been planning on doing this at Saluda for some time now, because we change players every 30 minutes. #1 because I'm Lazy and don't like to make 60+ trips to the stage to move mic's and #2 The Volume levels tend to creep upward as the day goes on, This is normal with the excitement of the show building as ther day goes on. Also Some times we have more Extra Guitar Players in the staff band than we have mic's or channels for in the system.

My plan is to suspend 3 mics in the overhead on each side of the stage and use the pan pots on the board to approximate their left and right position on the stage for a small boost of the normal stereo Sound field.

A loud Drummer or bass player can destroy your mix in a heartbeat and be so loud in the mix that you can't hear a singer.

If there's not a good stage balance before you turn the system on then A soundman can't help you, he can boost some one who isn't loud enough, but he can't bring down someone who is already too loud.

A good clue is when the bass is too loud and the fader on his channel is all the way down and the singer can't be heard. It happens!!!

I agree that the Soundman should be a musician, but not one who is performing, he has the worst seat in the house for listening.

Also the soundman should have some knowledge of electronics and how the mixer controls function. There are way too many groups out there with large systems that don't have a clue on how it should be used.

After all you wouldn't let your pet chimp ride your expensive Harley motorcycle alone, would you? For the ones that say My Chimp is trained to ride a motorcycle, I say that I have made my point.

------------------
 The Southern Steel Guitar Convention at Saluda, SC Since 1987

For informstion on the Shriners Childrens Hospitals, go to:
http://www.shrinershq.org/hospitals/geninfo.html

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 13 July 2004 at 06:44 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 13 Jul 2004 8:55 am

John

I commend your for your astuteness and prowess in always thinking of ways to solve built-in problems. Saluda is blessed to have you and your dedication. I laud you dear friend.

I would like to share the following with you personally.

When I was asked by Hal Rugg and Larry Sasser to produce Atlanta's first steel guitar show in '97, I told them (after much prayer and consternation) that I would ONLY do it if I could have 3 things. When they asked me what they were, I said,

1. Since it will be held the Thanksgiving weekend, that I want each player to include in their set at least one hymn.

2. That there be no smoking in the hall.

3. That the overall sound level be considerably lower than what had become norm in steel guitar shows.

Neither of them even whenced. They agreed on all three points. Sadly, I was reminded once again when you said, how the players start getting louder and louder as the show progresses.

In the second year's show on Saturday afternoon (it began Friday nite), my wife walked up to me and was trying to tell me about a problem that was happening at the registration booth and she needed me.

She was literally screaming in my ear and we were towards the back of the room. I pulled away from her and headed towards the sound booth. Whereupon the head audio mixer anticipating my words pointed to the master level controls on the PA mixing board.

To my dismay, they were completely OFF! And the sound coming off the steel guitar amp was so horridly loud I could not stand it.
I went outside and settled the problem with the person who was angry at the registration clerk.

Then I grabbed my wife, and said,

"that's it, there will NEVER be another steel guitar show produced by me." And there hasn't and there never will be. Nor will I ever sit again and try to enjoy music that is 50 times louder than Jesus designed our ears to listen to.

I address the following to my Christian bretheren. Sodom and Gamorah did not start out like it was when it was destroyed. Sin of every conceivable persuasion gradually increases until we get desensitized to it. This is one of Satan's most power tools.

Loud music is destroying part of God's temple. Your body is God's temple. And your ears are a precious gift. Please please, dear bretheren stop and think what you are allowing to happen to you.

carl

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 13 Jul 2004 9:48 am

Carl I can understand yoiur consternation.

As a sound man I think my job is to get a good sound for ALL people in the room.

The sound, Not JUST control the sound equipment.

I tell groups : here are my off stage mid set or mid song hand signals.
Especially usefull for early in sets or with multiple bands.

I get your attention and point at your instrument and
wave it up or wave it down.

For too much bass or treble, especially for a bass player I point to the instrument ,
then finger down or up for the highs or lows
with the other hand, I wave up or down.

If it continues to be a problem I go on stage between songs, and nicely
and discretely explain they don't sound good out front : sometimes with a
" and people are leaving", comment.

As I see it the total sound on stage, off stage and stage monitors is my job.
However the sound is generated, not just from my sliders.

If they aren't coopertive I finish the gig and walk,
telling they why I won't work with them again.

Very simple.

95% of players are more worried about lossing audience than their volume level.
The other 5% can take a hike.

The later in the night increase in levels is for two reasons.

1) Excitment and the sense of increasing it.

2) on stage ear fatigue, after a certain amount of sound at a elevated level,
the ear becomes gradually desensitized and players turn up thinking they need to compensate.

But with most players a word to the wise is sufficiant.
But if they get no feedback they just go on as they think is normal.

In my curent working group no one thinks twice if
I wallk over and tweak their amp a bit.
Because usualy I tweak it less than they do, but to more positive effect.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 13 July 2004 at 11:10 AM.]

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 13 Jul 2004 2:10 pm

Don't you love it when the drummer asks for more drums in the MONITORS!!! I could understand a little kick drum in the mix if were a BIG house or outside, but be reasonable.

Ear fatigue is a big deal, I wish more musicians understood that.

How many sound men are out of work drummers? I know several.

Also, I think the people (read non-musician) that hire the sound man and band judge the sound by what it feels like. And face it, most people (again, non-musicians) hear the "beat" first. If the kick drum is hitting you in the chest and the snare makes your ears tickle then there's the "beat." So, the sound man's performance is judged on the volume of the drums.

------------------
Ben
Zum D10, NV400, TubeFex, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 13 Jul 2004 2:31 pm

.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 08:19 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 13 Jul 2004 2:51 pm

You can get that thump in the gut without affecting the mix to much and keep the over all volume down at the same time.

it is mostly sub woofer, and not the true music mix or balance.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 13 Jul 2004 5:29 pm

We were told to be ready for a sound check at 7 p.m. for an 8 o'clock dance in a medium-sized community hall... we were.
The 2 soundmen (both drummers) spent from 7 o'clock until 8:40 adjusting the 147,000 mics they seemed to think they needed on the drum kit. The remaining 15 minutes were spent on the other four instruments (piano, bass, steel, guitar) and the vocalist.
I don't work with that band anymore.

The prevailing attitude amongst younger musicians/technicians/listeners is that there can never be too much bass. Notice that ghetto blasters all have "bass boost" buttons on them now ? That's 'cause the guy that mixed the recording didn't know what he was doing, I guess.

I witnessed a funny scene between a sound tech and the (old and experienced) drummer in my jazz trio at the Ottawa Jazz Fest last week. I warned the sound guy that he would be committing suicide by suggesting that the bass drum be miked. He wasn't listening, I guess. This drummer adamantly refuses to let that happen. Overheads only, no discussion.
After several back-and-forths about it, the drummer suggested that the soundman might like to post a helper in the parking lot, hopefully to catch the microphone after the drummer unplugged it and threw it through the side window. That seemed to get the message across.

-John

------------------
www.ottawajazz.com

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Jul 2004 3:16 am

ROTFL

I used to mix a funk bands drums with just two PZM flat mics on the floor left and right of the bass drum.
For small clubs that was all I ever needed.
And a super easy set up too.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Jul 2004 5:08 pm

Not all drummers are too loud. I have found that most all who are loud started out playing rock music, which is kinda poor training anyway...roughly analogous to an opthalmic surgeon starting out as a meatcutter in a slaughter-house. Rock music must be loud for people to like it. Loud is good, louder is better. That's rock. That's their mantra. "Feel the energy"! Rock drummers, almost without exception, think all fast songs have to be very loud, and most all slow songs have to be almost as loud.

Country drummers, on the other hand, are normally quite tasteful and reserved. (Note: this does NOT apply to drummers in the newer "NCS" bands, they're basically rock clones since they're playing what is basically rock music.) You can play good, solid, tight country music without being loud.

I had the extreme pleasure of playing in a band for several years with a great country drummer named Bill Lusby. He played drums like Jimmy Day played steel. He epitomized class and taste in everything he ever played. Even when he was playing hot stuff, rhythms, chops, and riffs few other drummers could copy, he was never loud.

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 15 Jul 2004 5:55 am

In my curent working group no one thinks twice if I wallk over and tweak their amp a bit.

You don't work with professionals?

To me this is Micro Management in the worst way, If you hire professionals, let them do their job, If you don't like the way they are doing the job, get somebody else.

I have put considerable time and effort, not to speak of money in the amp rig that I have assembled.
This would be for me the ultimate professional insult. NOBODY understands my rig like I do, how it is connected internally in the rack with two processors along with a stereo steel preamp. The last thing I need is some self-appointed expert to mess with what I took so much pride in selecting and assembling. I have nine knobs on my rig where the volume can be adjusted and each affect the sound a little differently, which one would you tweak?

I wouldn't think twice either, I would walk, right in the middle of the song.

I would have loved to have seen somebody tweak Curly Chalker's amp.

Talk about Fireworks.[This message was edited by John Floyd on 16 July 2004 at 01:49 AM.]

Gary C. Dygert · Post by **Gary C. Dygert** » 15 Jul 2004 8:35 am

I've played with good and bad. One was so good he could pull you back to the rhythm without you even knowing it, and one was so bad another band member told him to stop playing when I was singing "Help Me Make It Through the Night." Also, some forget that drums are not a lead instrument.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 15 Jul 2004 8:53 am

.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 08:19 PM.]

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 15 Jul 2004 6:21 pm

For those of you who think that drummers can be musicians....THANK YOU!

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 15 Jul 2004 7:26 pm

In answer to the original question:

Because they are a Percussion Instrument.

They are not blown, strummed, bowed, or plucked.

They are beaten.

They are Drums.

That was easy..

EJL

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 15 Jul 2004 10:18 pm

In contrast with OUR instruments, which are amplified because:
We want to be heard.
We get paid too.
Not only percussionists have chips on their shoulders.

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 16 Jul 2004 1:32 am

So many drummers... So little time...

(Think about it...)

------------------
My best,
Ernie

www.buddyemmons.com