Vroom Vroom Vroom

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Sep 2004 10:19 am

Steiner.

Excuse me, but YOU mentioned ECM recording artists and no others.

Also I don't consider your comments to be ignorant, why do you attack mine as being so?

Did or did not the European countries of France and Germany have under the table dealings in weapons materials with Iraq after the Gulf war, and has the UN been found to be taking money under the table from Iraq in the "oil for food program"?? Just answer yes or no.

Edit.
Also I worked a weeks worth of concerts here on guitar with some girl named "Sissel". I don't know anything about her. The concert was with the Atlanta Symphony and she sang some phonetic "oooooooooiiinnngggg" sounding things and a wierd ballad. The music was in conjunction with the Lord Of the Rings.
You ever do any music with her??? Know who she is??? Small world.[This message was edited by Bill Hatcher on 16 September 2004 at 11:26 AM.]

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 16 Sep 2004 11:01 am

On the contrary Mr. Hatcher, the Preamble to the Constitution says it was established "by the people" to, among other things, "promote the general welfare". The dictionary says:

welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being.

Not only is it a right, it is an inalienable right! Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

It states clearly that the healthcare system is the responsibility of the government, not insurance companies, pharmacutical compaines, and HMO's where it's not about care but about profits. The purpose of government is to "protect and serve" the people. It is not to regulate, investigate, contaminate, or stipulate what American life is.

You can just waltz right into ANY emergency room in America you will be treated or the hospital can be held liable.

That's true, you can receive treatment. But, if you can't pay your bill they will go after everything you or your family has. We are one of the very few countries in the world that allow people to make a living off other peoples hardships. The Collections Business is one of the most prosperous in the country. It is also one of the most destructive. I even had one of them call my neighbor and have him leave a note on my door!

I'm glad you have insurance. However, in this land of opportunity, I have been laid off for 4 years now. Most of the work in my field has been outsourced overseas. The insurance premium - before we lost it - for my family was $1,800.00 per month. I have a daughter that has health issues that requires over $600.00 per month in medication. It was cheaper to just pay for the meds. And, now when I get insurance again it will be a pre-existing condition and not be covered for at least a year. Now that's promoting the general welfare!

Don

Edit: typo

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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it! ~ Yogi Berra

[This message was edited by Don Joslin on 16 September 2004 at 12:02 PM.][This message was edited by Don Joslin on 16 September 2004 at 02:07 PM.][This message was edited by Don Joslin on 16 September 2004 at 04:10 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Sep 2004 11:12 am

All manner of groups in America are using this logic. They sight the phrase "pursuit of Happiness".

So therefore I should expect EVERTHING from the gov. that I want that makes me happy. I don't think it was ever designed to be like that.

Sorry about your job situation. I too have a health dependent child and I know how tough that is.

Auset Sarno · Post by **Auset Sarno** » 16 Sep 2004 11:18 am

"Vroom, vroom, vroom....vroooooom I love this thread"

Auset

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Sep 2004 11:34 am

Don, no sugar coating from you!!
There are clearly great things in the USA and poor things.

Having just returned from there I was amazed at the presure to conform socially. Something I did NOT remember from previous long visits.

In regards to bathing, no one bathes less that the French do!

I still can't believe this old canard is still floating around.
Yeah right....

OK Bill, I stand corrected, as to your visiting Norway, and England, What had prefaced that post had made me pissed off enough to reply before reading that post.
But it appears your views of the country from a few clubs and a cold bus trip are a bit superficial.
I have had finger sndwichs in the USA too.

Sure, just like the USA France is a capitalist country, some opinions not withstanding.

There are, people in both countries out to make money no matter what.
Whether they have a friend or two in government turning a paid blind eye, or in idiologically in agreement, or not, we can still find people ignoring the general will of a PEOPLE to make their bucks.

There have been things from the USA found in Iraq also that should not have been there too.
Arms dealers and people skirting the laws for profit with 3rd and 4th country cut outs and shills are certainly not limited to France and Germany.

Big Oil in France is much like Big Oil in the USA: cut throat and profit anyway you can. And it is as closely tied to the powers that be as it can be..
Gee, I see a parralell or two there...
But what the big money boys do, is not necesarily what the people of a country want.
So to see the people tarred for things they don't like, but can't change is galling to say the least.

The only pic of Kerry with Jane Fonda was made BEFORE she went to Hanoi, and they were not sitting together.
Ah, the miraculous of a telephoto lens and compress paralax of view.

And since then she has been married to a major league captitalist, so lets put thi sone to bed; 30 years to late.

Why should it be a question of GUTSYness to say your voting for Kerry... this is absurd.
And goes to my observation of social preasure to not think for yourself.

Memogate, as of 48 hours ago when I left the USA, there were only alegations that the CBS memos were forged, no proof that I saw.
And also in this election climate those allegations would be considered automatic spin.

Why is it that a election cycle invariably brings out the worst in the American people. And in this particular election this is 20 times worse than usual.

I have seen blatant lies told from the back lines of both sides,
and then people predisposed to one side or another quoting them as fact for weeks...

It truely is embarrasing for the country.

There was a comment about if there is biased press here.
Yep, sure is.. just like in the USA. And some as jingosit too.
But also there is press biased in more than one direction.
Not just a single view point : America is anti-french, lets stop their goals if we can.
Very conservative and very liberal views expressed also.

I don't choose to believe information from only 1 source, but from many of opposing views. Then you can see which facts are the same from all sides.

If you only read from journals that agree with you, then you only get one side.

If you only parrot the views of those you agree with, without looking furthar, you are likely to spout mis-information in amoungst some facts.

ADDENDUM:
Oh yeah After I posted this a I saw the health cost posts...
Well I got a cold at ISGC, and wne to a clinic in Nashville.
Cost me $98.. I was also appalled at that too. All I needed was a script for some anti-biotics and a antihystamine that didn't put me to sleep.
I had to pay cash of course.

Overr here in this "horribly socialist country" as some percieve France...
I would pay around $20 and get most of it reimmbursted in a few weeks.

The care will be equal to ANY I have recieved in the USA, and everyone has full access.

This is one of the reasons I might stay here longer.
This supposedly horrible leftist run, goverment inflicted health care system is just too good to leave.
Not without it's problems, not without some lowerr quality docs in the mix ; like anywhere, and overworked staff ; like anywhere,
but a jewel of efficiancyand affordability compared to many, many other systems.
And I am happy my taxes go to this.
It benifits me and all residnts here too.

Gee, go figure, those non-bathing French have got great health care... who'd a thunk it.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 September 2004 at 01:06 PM.]

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 16 Sep 2004 11:38 am

Mr. Hatcher - I'll agree with you on that one but follow my logic here. It says "the pursuit of happiness". "Pursuit" implies that it is my responsibility to pursue what makes me happy. It says "promote the general welfare" which implies the governments responsibility to do it's best to provide "health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being". Just like it says "provide for the commom defense". "Provide" implies government responsibility. Again, what you should EXPECT from the government is to "protect and serve".

I too am sorry about your daughter. It really stinks when kids are involved.

Don

Edit: Auset -

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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it! ~ Yogi Berra

[This message was edited by Don Joslin on 16 September 2004 at 12:42 PM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 16 Sep 2004 11:40 am

Excuse me, but YOU mentioned ECM recording artists and no others.

This is splitting hairs.... I wrote: "..musicians like Chick Corea and Pat Metheny, to name a few, have insisted on recording several of their albums here...". Not a word about the label, just that they've enjoyed working and recording here. The fact that they're ECM artists didn't have anything to do with it on my part, it didn't even enter my mind.

Just answer yes or no.

I have already told you that I won't discuss the Iraq situation here, that'll be opening a can of worms that I don't believe belong in this forum.

Also I worked a weeks worth of concerts here on guitar with some girl named "Sissel".

If she was Norwegian, then it was probably Sissel Kyrkjebø. I've never worked with her myself, but with several of her regular musicians in other projects.
A wonderful voice and a great talent, but to me it seems like she doesn't quite know what to do with it,- she lacks artistic vision and focus IMO.

Steinar[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 16 September 2004 at 12:47 PM.]

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 16 Sep 2004 11:42 am

Mr. Hatcher,

If you can find ONE 9/11 terrorist who was from Iraq, I will vote for George Bush.

good luck,

Chris Scruggs

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Sep 2004 12:29 pm

Chris.

Iraqi Fedayeen Lt. Col Ahmed Hikmat Shakir is one person who was at a meeting in 2000 in Kuala Lampour with two of the hijackers and other Al Queda planners. Written documents found in Iraq have strongly implicated him. All sorts of spin in the media both directions over this a few months ago. He was not in the planes, but what was he doing at the meeting???

How about the absolute evidence that Saddam had tried to assasinate Bush Sr. That's not good enough for you??

I'll give you the best reason to vote Bush----the Arab/islamic terrorist street supports Kerry.

Now using your rationale, is it OK with you if Bush leads us to war with Saudi Arabia since nearly all the hijackers were from there????

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Sep 2004 12:35 pm

Thanks for your comments David.

Fonda split up with Ted Turner. She has a home across town. She became a staunch Christian and he could not deal with it. I wonder how they split up the state of Montana which they just about owned.

This is just such an important election. I am not going to let any challenge I can get involved in go un-noticed.

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 16 Sep 2004 1:46 pm

It makes more since than going to war with Iraq. But of course we would never attack Saudi Arabia because we are too dependant on their money and oil(as apposed to Iraq, where we stand to make money of of their oil).

And isn't it a strange coincidence that the Bush family rich Texas oil tycoons? Isn't it strange that both Presidents from this family have gone to war in oil country? Would we of rescued Kuwait if they had had no oil?

CS

Bob Knight · Post by **Bob Knight** » 16 Sep 2004 1:51 pm

Chris Scruggs,
You are pretty wise to be so young.

You also play too good for your age. I commend you!!

You would think these 50+yr. old geezers could see what's really happening also. It appears that most of their reality checks have bounced

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Knight on 16 September 2004 at 02:57 PM.]

Auset Sarno · Post by **Auset Sarno** » 16 Sep 2004 2:29 pm

Although this thread has whirled through some pretty ugly spaces and brought out some very bad behavior, it has been highly informational as well.

Really, my true sadness lies in the tragedy that come "voting time", I am faced with two very miserable options. The whole thing is so incredibly foul anymore...IMHO, neither man is worthy of leading this country (seems like they both lack the qualities of leading their own personal lives, much less an entire country). But it's the people that have to stand up and say "enough is enough". We want our constitutional rights and civil liberties back. Everything that is fed to the public (whether it leans right or left) is fear-based spin. People in fear will gladly surrender liberty if they believe they gain security in exchange. And that's where we stand today. Our forefathers are surely turning in their graves...

vroom, vroom, vroom, vrooooooom the beat goes on...

Auset

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 16 Sep 2004 3:17 pm

Bill:

if you are indigent or poor here you are privy to the absolute best health care in the world. You can just waltz right into ANY emergency room in America you will be treated or the hospital can be held liable.

Being a poor person at different points in my life and not always having health insurance I know that in reality this is just not true. At one point I tried to get medical care at the hospital and went through all the paperwork. ( It took months. If you have any assets or make more than $370 a month you do not qualify) I found that in NY where medicaid care is some of the "best " in the nation the health care was auful to non-existent. You get shunted off to a waiting room with hundreds of other people and basicly get nothing.

If you are currently dieing they will patch you up and send you on your way but forget about any decent follow up treatment. Its real bad.

There are allot of poor people in this country. They are not all lazy and stupid. Sometimes times get tough and there is not much you can do about it. Most of us that work hard and are doing ok at this point are only a few paychecks or month of gigs away from some serious money problems. I know it sounds crazy but most of those European countries have much better health care than we do and overall they spend quite a bit less money for it.

Health care is a real mess in the states.

Bob

PS: and just to get this thread back on topic:

Toby Kieth sucks ![This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 16 September 2004 at 04:20 PM.]

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 16 Sep 2004 4:14 pm

Don't shoot the messenger...

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/979

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Sep 2004 4:21 pm

I'll give you the best reason to vote Bush----the Arab/islamic terrorist street supports Kerry.

About as much as they support any american president. 0%

The arabs that count in this equasion : terrorists or proto-terrorists, don't give a hang which guy makes it in, they want them all out and with no power left.
And ideally with the USA converted to islam under the imam of their choice.

But remember these people are pure zealots,
not the more rational average Joe (Abdulla, whatever) on the arab street.

I observe that there are now more proto-terrorists than before Iraq was invaded. We have created the kindergarden and prepschool for the type.
Plus an advanced training ground to put theory into practice.

This was a clear logical outcome in my view before the invasion. I stated as much to several people well before the fact.

As laudable as SOME of the reasons for doing it were,
the end fact is quagmire, an incubator for borderline disafected arab youth to be recruited for terrorist ends,
and a general lowering of whatever goodwill formerly existed on the arab street for ANY USA interests.
80%+ of Iraqi's hate the USA even though we deposed their tyrant.
At least he was THEIR tyrant, now they feel there is a bigger one.

But to construe that the pure unbridaled hate for President Bush, as new tyrant,
is congruent with direct support for Mr. Kerry is pure fantasy.

They want Bush out of power, period.
It could be Bugs Bunny running against him and they arab street would vote Bugs, fully knowing he is celuliod.

At the moment two french reporters are being held, since Aug 18th,
for the"crimes against islam" of the french goverments.
So it seems the so called aide and complicity of the french oil industry in Iraq,
holds no traction whatsoever with the arab street.

"No man is an island" and No country is an island either.

If we treat our allies as enemys whenever they disagree,
[ see : france/USA 6 months either side of Iraq invasion ]

then we soon have fewer allies and their help when wer REALLY need it.
[ see : current lack of international support for iraq's rebuilding ]

And why is this where we all are today :
Why is it that Bill can rail at Norway and feel that this is appropriate?

Why is there this with us or against us attitude dividing not just us from our allies,
but americans from other americans ,
in some of the most vituperative dialog in centuries?

Why is this election driven more by fear than a rational debate on the issues of our day, and the style of leadership needed.
[ see : Cheney saying " vote for Kerry and you will be attacked" now that's leadership! ]

It is top down leadership by fear,
which seems more affective than trickle down ecoomics ever did.
(much the same source too)

We are told something and we just blindly assume there is no OTHER rational viewpoint,
since anyone stating something different is an enemy or a traitor.

Come on folks.
Blunt force and a big stick is nothing if we ALSO can't speak softly ;
to paraphrase a great war president :Teddy Roosevelt.

To have a nuanced approach, and ability to reconfigure as facts change,
to listen to and work with others,
to build bridges and shy from tearing them down,
WERE once all laudable things.

Yet in todays election cycle these are now faults of the highest order,
and will subject you and your familiy to future injure and pain.

Again, come on folks!
I don't buy it. It seems the days of taking the high road in political discourse are truely at an end.
Because clearly any candidate having an sense of shame can't get the job, since we are voting ruled by fearmongering.

And shame on us, the electorate, for allowing ourselves to be so Pavlovianly manipulated.
They push our buttons and we vote the anti-fear ticket,
even if this is the group giving us the most fear vicariously,
no matter the clearly foreseeable cost down the line for us and our children.

Our country was founded on freedom of speach and the ablity to vote as we see fit, even having the inalieanable right to be butt stupid if we want to be.

But just because we have that right, doesn't mean we should allow ourselves to be.

ie. think for youreself and not just repeat what you have heard and believe it's gospel.

In our time neither side has a monopoly on truth.

Favorite quote from Greg S's link
"Hypocrisies shine like cat turds in the moonlight!"* ROTFLMAO

This goes for both sides IMHO. Especially since there ought to be more than two sides to any BIG question.

* Garrison Keillor wrote that, and he's been great friend of the steel guitar I might add.

How many here will now hate him for a desenting view spoken publicly, a la Linda Rohndstat,
and never listen to a Prairie Home Companion again now that he has spoken his mind? I wonder, I really wonder.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 September 2004 at 06:10 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Sep 2004 5:09 pm

Geeze guys, lighten up!

These are just a couple of songs!

They're not manifestos or anthems. They're merely light social commentaries, signs of our times, made to make a buck...not a statement. They'll be forgotten sooner than you think. The public is fickle that way, so give it a break.

And go easy on each other...okay?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 16 Sep 2004 5:16 pm

Donny quit right.
There don't seem to be any George M. Cohan's around writing great patriotic anthems anymore.

Now it's odes to NASCAR, songs for favorite bars, swearing chicks in halter tops,
and what started this :
someone writing a song to appear patriotic
and jump on the support our troups bandwagon (TK),
and only coming accross as prowar.
Not pro-troups in harms way.

It only took ONE WORD to set Brad's thread into a tailspin.
But if THAT'S all it took... then maybe it needed to be addressed.
Surprised it wasn't closed down yet![This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 September 2004 at 06:19 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 16 Sep 2004 6:24 pm

I have worked with G. Keillor on the P. Home Companion thing. Nice fellow aside from his liberal views. He is paired up with the perfect bed partner--NPR. About as useless for decent journalism as Dan Rather.

Ms. Rhondstat will have to live with her legacy like the Dixie Chicks and accept whatever comes as a result of deceiving an audience that came for music into listening to a political infomercial.

The thread has not been closed because it is important and so far has been decently civil.

David D.

Surely you know that the Saudis have financed these Madrassas or however you spell it. They have indoctrinated hundreds of youth into the islamic lunitics that become terrorists. This has been going on for years.

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 16 Sep 2004 9:44 pm

Bill,

And what will the Dixie Chicks have to live with? They had the most successful country tour of 2003(more income than "War Monger" Toby Kieth. As for MPR, if you have a problem with Mr. Keiler, simply DON'T WORK FOR HIM(as you have)!!! And if you don't like the concept of MPR(and if you think they are "byassed"), don't listen to Fox news either, as they are obviously byassed for the other side (which conveniently happens to be your side).

And why do you think MPR is byassed? Because they report BBC news? Well geuss what? BBC News is funded by the British federal government(whose leader is your favorite World Leader, Tony Blair, next to George Bush). Maybe the British just have a higher standard of journalism when compared to us.

You call George Bush our "Commander and Chief", while you call Bill Clinton (in a previous post) a "Pig". Obviously the title "Commander and Chief" only applies to Republicans in your eyes. Clinton was also our commander and Chief, so maybe you yourself are "byassed". You say "Dubya" is a "Saved Christian", and that is the difference between him and Clinton. Well I call him a "Coke-head". And what's worse in God's eye's, Clinton's oral sex, or Bushes 1000 dead AMERICAN soldiers(not including the thousands of civilian Iraqi's, whom we are supposedly LIBERATING).

And while the republican party claims to be "Christian", while damning the Democratic party to being the party of "Pagan Communists", wasn't Jesus the PRINCE OF PEACE? Didn't Jesus say,"Fear not those who kill the body, but cannot destroy the soul"? Didn't he also say,"Store your riches in heaven, and not on Earth"? And yet again, didn't he say,"Pay Caesers' things to Caeser, and God's things to God". Wouldn't that imply that everything in Earthly life(including life itself) be meaningless when compared to the afterlife provided though Jesus Christ? Shouldn't God straighten them out? What is a Human lifespan of 75 years when compared to ETERNITY? Wouldn't that render all true Christians "Pacifists", waiting for God to straighten out all "meaningless" Earthly matters?

Let's please keep this discussion going, as it is intillectually stimulating for both sides of the political spectrum.

Chris Scruggs

P.S.

You say their was an Iraqi present at a meeting whose motive was bombing the Twin Towers. IF we should attack any home country of a terrorist, then we should also attack the USA. Timothy McVieh was an AMERICAN terrorist, and his fundamental CHRISTIAN beliefs made him bomb the Oklahoma City Federal Building, just as the fundamental Islamic beliefs of the WWT Bombers led them to their actions. (food for thought)Maybe there are extremists in every religion(give that one a ponder)?[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 16 September 2004 at 10:45 PM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 17 Sep 2004 3:02 am

Maybe there are extremists in every religion(give that one a ponder)?

Nothing good ever comes from fundamentalism and fanatism, be it religious or political. The history of Christianity is just as stained in innocent blood as that of any other major religion, thanks to its fundamentalists. It's the same with politics,- left wing, right wing, I don't care,- fundamentalism kills.

There is, today, an ongoing struggle within the Islamic culture and religion, between the moderates and the extremists. Islam has reached the point where the modernisation has started, not unlike Christianity some 6-700 years ago (remember the Spanish Inquisition, the burning of witches, the crusades?), and it is important that we in the west do everything we can to support and strengthen the moderate side in that struggle.
Branding all Arabs or Muslims as "evil terrorist jerks", or whatever degrading name we can come upon, and/or doing the best we can to make their life miserable, we only contribute to strengthen the extremists. The Islamic moderates has a tough enough job as it is without us making it even worse.

Fight the terrorists, not the ordinary people. Judging a whole people and their culture by its extremists is about as ignorant as saying all Americans spend their Saturday nights with a white hood over their head.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 17 September 2004 at 04:05 AM.][This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 17 September 2004 at 05:40 AM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 17 Sep 2004 4:11 am

As long as we've gotten *slightly* tangental, two points. One, working hard has no relationship to income or quality of health care in America. Some of the hardest jobs in America pay the least, and people who have injured their health working for years in factories, restaurants and construction trades often get the least available care. Blaming poor people for being poor because they're lazy or stupid is, well, stupid and lazy. Two: I agree fully with Auset Parks that the choices we are offered this year are pretty grim. I would really like to be able to vote for a candidate who wasn't a child of privilege, a millionaire by birth or marriage, who wasn't fully owned by corporate interests, who didn't lie and spin reflexively and automatically, and who wasn't a member of a secret cult called "Skull and Bones," but I don't have that option. If they wanted to call their cult "The Milk and Cookies Club" they could have, but they didn't.[This message was edited by David Mason on 17 September 2004 at 06:09 AM.]

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 17 Sep 2004 4:48 am

Chris.

Fox news is not biased. You have to delineate between the news converage and the commentary segments. There is a talk radio host in Atlanta that has a standing offer of some thousands of dollars for anyone who can bring him proof of Fox bias in their NEWS coverage. Folks call in all the time with examples of what different commentators discuss but that is NOT news, that is two sided discussion of events. An example of bias in the news is this CBS crap. They know the documents are fake and yet their reply is that what they must have meant what they said---they just had to---surly Bush is guilty of what these false documents say--isn't he???--maybe a little??--maybe just a teeny bit??. This is the end for Dan Rather. A pitiful way to lose his credibility.

If I did not work for every person I disagree with politically, I would stay home most of the time. Some of the most liberal people in the world are in the arts.

England is just about as gov. controlled as you could want. The BBC and the Church of England and such. Check your history book under Revolutionary war and Pilgrims and you will get a better understanding why we are no longer under English rule.

Bill Clinton IS a pig. He sold us out by totally ignoring the islamic threat. A staffer of his has said that while in a meeting with Clinton the islamic threat came up and Clinton asked "what are the numbers on it?". Selling out your responsibility as leader of your country due to opinion polls and hiding in a side room of the oval office while an intern services you and doing nothing after the country is attacked several times on your watch------you really have ANY respect at all for this pig?????

Mcveigh is dead---his threat is over. He had more of a beef with the gov. than a twisted allegiance to God. That is how you get rid of a real terrorist. You don't negotiate with it, you don't ask it to be nice, you kill it. Gen. Tommy Franks aspires to this also. While in the war room in Iraq, there was a large contigency of Iraqi fighters threatening his/our troops in an area. He asked if there was any way get them to stop fighting. "No" was the reply.
"Kill em'" was Franks reply. islamic terrorists will only stop when they are dead. You will never be able to negotiate with these animals.

The Christian religion is part of BOTH parties and is not exclusive to one. You can't make that logic work. The Apostle Paul says that yes it will be better in your afterlife, but while you are here on earth you just don't sit around waiting to die or waiting for someone to kill you so you can have your reward. Christianity teaches that while you are here, you have do deal with here. There is also a point where God turns away from you and leaves you to your own evil. Do a search on "reprobate mind".

Equal time to the islamic jerks. If you want to be an islamic jerk, then leave others alone while you are being that jerk.

Joe Alterio · Post by **Joe Alterio** » 17 Sep 2004 4:56 am

.[This message was edited by Joe Alterio on 17 September 2004 at 06:07 AM.]

Janice Brooks · Post by **Janice Brooks** » 17 Sep 2004 5:22 am

How did we get from bad vidios to politics?

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047