Is LIVE music what it used to be?

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 31 Dec 2001 10:10 am

...and a very Happy New Year to you too Richard.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 31 Dec 2001 3:03 pm

I think everyone has good points and most likely the current music situation is a combination of all these factors. I'd like to say that I asked this question not as a whining complaint but because things in my area really are not as they were, and it was quite an unexpected surprise to me. 20 years I never had to even look for a gig, a few calls or a sit-in at a jam session was all it took to get a gig, even if it might not have been the greatest. I'm a much better musician now than I was then, and two years ago I quit a "regular job" to play music full-time again. Talk about a rude awakening. I can tell you point-blank that at least in Vegas and around the Pacific Northwest, live music has taken a big dive. I wondered if it was the same all over. Let me also tell you that I don't just play tradition country, although I grew up on that, I also got heavily into jazz, Latin, Blues, R&B, pop, even "easy-listening". I play steel, guitar, fiddle and bass and have played them all in pro groups on the road. It used to be pretty easy to get a gig, but not anymore. I believed a lot of this is due to the fact that no one can sit in a TV station for 16 years then come out and be top dog in the music scene overnight, but even all my old musician-friends have told me "it's terrible in town these days". Don't believe me, go to Vegas and try to get a band going. The local musicians refuse to even rehearse unless you've got something already booked! How do you book a gig without a band? Well some do, and that's the only way anyone considers you're worth their time. Well anyway thanks again to all who posted and a very happy and safe New Year to you all.

Jim http://jimphelps.com

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 31 Dec 2001 3:50 pm

Hard feelings? Paul, how can either one of us have hard feelings when we know we are right, at least in our own minds!

I'm sure Nashville has a diversity of music that goes beyond my preference but speaking of the type which made Nashville "Music City", there seems to be less "new" or "traditional" than in the past. Maybe one just has to look harder for it than you had to 30 years ago. As for LIVE, WARM bodies, I can only make money when they are not!

Happy New Year.......

Janice Brooks · Post by **Janice Brooks** » 31 Dec 2001 3:53 pm

Production is at fault for other areas of music as well as country. But to cut through the obnoxious miked drums and amplifiers as big as apartment size refrigerators, there must be more creativity in presentation.

Rick

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My last trip to Texas I saw Ed Burlson at the Broken Spoke. The worst aspect of the evening was to much time between songs so the dancers left the floor.

Herb can back me up but when I see Cornell or Johnny Bush they always have at least a couple times a show where they go from one song to another. Even in a non dancehall situation this should cut down chatter.

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 31 Dec 2001 4:41 pm

http://genejones.bizland.com/January%2029,%202001.jpg

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 31 Dec 2001 4:42 pm

Myron I know you good enough to know where your coming from however You can't compare Connecticuit with Nashville.In the early days it was mainly road pickers on nights off sitting in Nashvilles lower broad clubs,sharing licks,war stories and keeping up their chops with music they couldn't play on the road.It was an opertunity for a good picker to get seen and even jobs that were plentiful at that time...Most of the audiences were mainly pickers, singers and tourist when a bus would drop them off for a gander.I'm thankful for the friends I made during that era. I too worked for 15.00 a night in the late sixtys getting established and built a pretty good career doing a music I loved. I see nothing wrong with someone else going through what we did and maybe they will get as much out of it as we did. Nashville with it's abundance of players arriving every day makes it easy for club owners to take advantage.The mere fact that Tootsies has survived all the new ownerships and continues to still be Tootsies should tell us all something. If there are still clubs going strong then as long as a picker is happy then it's a good gig..What we all have to be is thankful we got to do what we wanted to do. As Paul said It's not all about money...However if one wants to eat steady there is no better reason to want to get paid.

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CJC

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 31 Dec 2001 5:10 pm

Quoting Bob Hoffner......"Here is another trick I use to keep myself busy. I sit in with a new band playing whatever sort of music and I spend all of my time and effort making the singer sound good and bringing out whatever is strongest about the tune. Forget about riffs and solos".........

Like Bob, that has been my philosphy throughout most of my career.

The upside of that has been that I have usually worked during slow times when many "stylists" have not.

The downside has been that, unlike the customers at Cheers, no one has ever known my name.

www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 01 January 2002 at 04:52 AM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 1 Jan 2002 9:47 am

Mike,

I promise you there is nothing to wipe off of my leg as you suggest in off topic.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 01 January 2002 at 09:58 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 01 January 2002 at 10:00 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 01 January 2002 at 10:02 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 01 January 2002 at 10:23 AM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 1 Jan 2002 10:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My last trip to Texas I saw Ed Burlson at the Broken Spoke. The worst aspect of the evening was to much time between songs so the dancers left the floor.

Herb can back me up but when I see Cornell or Johnny Bush they always have at least a couple times a show where they go from one song to another. Even in a non dancehall situation this should cut down chatter.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The difference is called "showmanship," which includes the performance of the songs, but also what occurs in between songs. If a singer... and IMHO Ed Burleson is a great artist, BTW... doesn't have the songs rehearsed with the band, time is spent in-between songs discussing the intro, key, solos, etc. This is cool for the band and singer, but the audience sees only the entirety of the performance. If the show is flowing and contiguous, it is more impressive than if there are stops and starts, which causes the audience attention/excitement levels to drop, folks leaving the dance floor, etc. etc.

This is uncool in a dance show situation, but even worse in a concert format. And I've seen performers discuss the material, show chords to the band, etc. in concerts and believe me, it really looks bad then!!

With both Johnny and Cornell, the leader gives the band discrete signals as to what song will be next, and between songs there is patter, comedy, schtick, and so forth. Direct communication with the musicians is minimal.

An analogy could be made to the... um,... physical act of love, to be genteel

. Imagine the response if, every three minutes, one of the partners stopped to go to the bathroom, answer the phone, make coffee, whatever, before going back to the activity at hand. Let's just say that the total experience for one of the participants would be diminished.

As it goes in the bedroom, so does it go onstage and the dancefloor. And I bet you guys can have a whole lot of fun with THAT last statement!!!!

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 1 Jan 2002 10:23 am

OH NO...don't tell me this has spilled over into the vile,venom spewing,hateful "Off Topic"? Been there,done that.If you want to go to hell go to Off Topic.
And some of you guys wonder why Paul and Buddy don't like to participate on this forum.They get raked over the coals.

Anyway...Happy New Year!

[This message was edited by Earl Erb on 01 January 2002 at 11:04 AM.]

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 1 Jan 2002 11:42 am

I can't talk about Nashville, or wherever in theStates, but as I see at this side over the pond..
Bob is right and Paul is right.

There is a lot of music going on, fading in the overall-country, looks like it's centered in places like p.a. Amsterdam, Nijmegen, Berlin, where you have music-scenes, but it is music of this time. The rap-scene, the "lounge-music", free jazz, hip-hop is big here, and country never was, so that doesn't count here. This is not our culture , overhere it's Carnaval. If you are open-minded, and like to back-up a scratcher, a singer-songwriter, take part in a bluesjamsession, you can play almost very night, on different locations. But it's not entertainment for the big crowd anymore, and this has (for Holland) a lot to do with home-entertainment,house-parties with XTC,internet-chat-relationships, fear for getting attacked in the streets and bars, way of living, hard, long stressy workdays and a need for sleep etc. Looks now if people can't find comfort in live-music, but seek it anywhere else. I think we are in a dip from a wave, where the crap will dissapear and the real ones will survive. Also, the mass of people who are single is growing, if this goes on, people will search for comfort outside of their houses and need to be entertained, and listening to a band is far more exiting then holding hand behind a computer or ....
If I talk about steelguitar in country and compare it with a accordeon in woodenshoes-dance music.. The open minds survive and find places to make music! Yes, the feel of sharing musical thoughts with warm bodies, not for the money, but for the need of excisting like a musical warm body...

I'm shocked by the off-topic subject, as I told some time ago....

From a European smart-ass

Happy newyear,JJ[This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 01 January 2002 at 12:09 PM.]

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 1 Jan 2002 12:05 pm

Am I missing something or am I suppose to get mad at someone or everyone that disagrees with me? I thought that opposing views were just that, opposing views from someone who doesn't see things the way you do. Does that make it wrong? NO! Are you suppose to get mad and not speak to them ever again? NO! I'm still sitting back laughing at this thread and enjoying it but I'm beginning to scratch my head and wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't take this seriously. As for the towel remark in Off Topic, the late Ronnie Hiatt, Les and myself wore that joke out three years ago! It was intended as a bittersweet reminder of a friend's comment that is no longer with us. Johann, if Off Topic offends you, stay away from it. It wasn't intended for the good at heart, only the wicked and vile!

Stay on me Paul, I'm out of practice but it's coming back slowly.

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 1 Jan 2002 12:08 pm

And some of you guys wonder why Paul and Buddy don't like to participate on this forum.They get raked over the coals.

......not in Off Topic. Steel guitar or players seldom, if ever, get mentioned in Off Topic. There are more important things to solve such as the war on terrorism and straightening out Washington DC. We just don't have time to solve EVERYONE'S problems there!

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 1 Jan 2002 12:16 pm

Mike, I get the intention that you mean it in a good way,and so does Les, so I am shocked that Paul was/ is a topic between that crap I read upthere. He doesn't belong there, and never will!!
Happy Newyear, Mike!!

JJ[This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 01 January 2002 at 12:24 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 1 Jan 2002 12:31 pm

I'm still sitting back laughing at
this thread and enjoying it but I'm beginning to scratch my head and
wonder if I'm the only one who doesn't take this seriously.

Sometimes I make jokes with a straight face and even people who know me think I'm serious. I figure if they can make that mistake in person, I should kinda watch my words a little bit when I write something, especially when people don't know me or they'll take it seriously and be all over me. Mike, we don't know each other but I'd think maybe that happens to you sometimes...If you don't want to "water down" your sense of humor or way of wording things, then I'd guess you just have to expect that people will sometimes think you mean something in a stronger or maybe even hostile way, when you actually didn't.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 1 Jan 2002 12:32 pm

quote from Herb..."doesn't have the songs rehearsed with the band, time is spent in-between songs discussing the intro, key, solos, etc".......

I am very acquainted with the scenario that Herb described above, and my biggest complaint about it is that the steel player is usually way over at the side of the bandstand and not involved in the discussion....but when all of the decisions have been voted on and decided someone looks over at the steel player who is completely clueless about the next song and says, "kick off_____in______!..and you are expected to recall the song and mentally construct an appropriate intro and count it off in "less than 5 seconds"!

www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 01 January 2002 at 12:35 PM.][This message was edited by Gene Jones on 01 January 2002 at 12:36 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 1 Jan 2002 12:32 pm

Oops, that top paragraph above was supposed to show as a quote but I messed it up.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 1 Jan 2002 12:34 pm

Gene, you're right on the nose!

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 1 Jan 2002 12:40 pm

"kick off_____in______!..and you are expected to recall the song and mentally construct an appropriate intro and count it off in "less than 5 seconds"!

Keeps us awake, doesn't it?? Love it!!

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 1 Jan 2002 1:30 pm

Once more my man Gene completes my sentence better than I could have myself!

To quote Big E, "you were always one hour ahead of the posse!"

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 3 Jan 2002 9:38 am

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Mike and Jim! These are the guys I fight with(but still love). Mike, you are like Mr Donnie Hinson, everything I ever see out of you two I aggree with! Not to exiting a statement to make but I really feel you are totally correct. You have the "person on the street" perspective that we don't have here in Nashville . We had better listen to people like you here, country music is going down the tubes because idiots in this town don't listen to guys like you and Jim Phelps. We need your intelligent input and we need to listen to you, not argue with you! The world is screeming for a change in the direction music is going and Nashville isn't listening! Thats why we have lost 75% of what we had in the total share of music business. Wake up Nashville, the town I love, listen to guys like Mike Weirach, AND many million others,do we think we are doing good? Sorry, we arn't,compared to what it could be.
Bobbe

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 3 Jan 2002 10:34 am

75% loss of the Business is real accurate and 80-85% loss of real Country Music and 70% of featured pure steel is loss on recordings. There is steel on many recordings however minute and when they want to get airplay in large markets they remove the steel tracks. Thank God for all the good steel shows and the super Dallas show coming up in March.

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CJC

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 3 Jan 2002 4:29 pm

Yes Joe, you are correct, thank god for the steel shows, and the fans,players,vendors,dealers,builders,etc. We have a tiny little world to ourselves, this is why I want to promote steel to everyone else, I want our world bigger. Maybe someday, we will have 25% just for steel! ! !

Happy new year!
Bobbe

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 3 Jan 2002 6:38 pm

Mike,....You have the "person on the street" perspective

..that is to say, Mike, that you have the perspective of a street person..

(the smiley face is for Jim Phelps, he gives good advice about good-humored deadpan remarks coming across wrong in writing)..

..Bobbe, Mike wants people to argue with him here..he talks about this stuff all day at work and nobody ever disagrees with him or even offers a good counterpoint..

..just don't compliment him too much, he'll get to thinking so much of himself he'll need a towel for his own leg..

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 3 Jan 2002 7:33 pm

Seymore,

The guy on the street perspective I care about is the one who attends the many non traditional clubs in town. They speak volumes to all who will listen. There are so many musical options in Nashville for any musician willing to depart from the normal paths. Bob and Gene have the right musical view which I also share.

Look at it this way. In Nashville the traditional gig is only one source of income for all musicians. After that they also have the option to work as contemperary christian, southern gospel, alternative rock, jazz, classical, Folk, Bluegrass, R&B, Funk, and Blues musicians. You name it and I can name players who are survivng well off of playing music outside the country scene.

These are great musical times for those with an open mind to venture. You can salute whoever you want but there are more playing gigs for musicians outside the narrow scope of the traditional country venues in Nashville and that is a fact, not an opinion.

Paul