Why are drummers always too loud?

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 24 Jul 2004 2:38 pm

I would think that a bad drummer would play soft and very low so no one can hear him.

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David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Jul 2004 12:47 am

Ya think?

Actually I have observed bad drummers play with more stick movement to compensate for a lack of good timing.
If the stick moves a longer distance ( louder), then it is easier to see / feel the timing differences.

The great drummers, play with wrists and even finger movement rather than whole arm and soime wrist.

Chris Brooks said he might haver a drummer for our Cape Cod jam, and I asked if he could play with pencils.
I saw Alan Dawson do a ballad with real #2 pencils, and he sounded awesome.
Somtimes with the slightly rounded writin' end and sometimes with the erasure end.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 26 Jul 2004 1:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Somehow, I suspect the "rock music" Bobby is talking about and playing is more along the lines of easy-listening, or soft-rock music. I doubt they do many songs in the style of Aerosmith, Twisted-Sister, Kiss, or Metallica!

(If they do, I'd sure like to hear 'em!) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe not quite Metallica, but I wouldn't call it easy-listening or soft-rock either. Here are two songs (mp3 format) that we recorded live last summer:

Just Around The Bend

Today and Tomorrow

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Mark Kuhn · Post by **Mark Kuhn** » 28 Jul 2004 1:51 pm

I agree with the drummer / soundman issues. Drummers shouldn't be soundmen. Soundman shouldn't be drummers. One drummer I've worked with is a great friend but YES HE PLAYS WAY TOO LOUD. I've only met one sound man I've liked. He was a guitarist and only used 2 mics for the drums.

How do you tell the drummer is level on stage?............when he drools from both sides of his mouth.

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Mark Kuhn

Bob Wood · Post by **Bob Wood** » 28 Jul 2004 9:38 pm

Hey!

Some of my best friends are drummers!

Bob

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 29 Jul 2004 1:15 am

Don't worry Bob, that doesn't make you a bad person!

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 4 Aug 2004 8:39 am

Spent the better part of an hour reading and digesting all of this. I just can't resist an opinion. First my backgroud. Started playing guitar when I was 14 - I'm 51. Worked on the road playing clubs for 10 years BEFORE I went to college and majored in Music Theory and Composition. I've mixed live sound, done stage & lighting choreography. worked as a sound consultant in theatre, and currently operate a small recording studio. "Nuff said.

First, the issue of dynamics. Several have stated the importance. I never REALLY understood dynamics until I played with an orchestra. It was terrifying. You guys should all try playing with 60-80 people onstage, not just 5 or 10! The epitome was when I saw John Williams play with a full 70 piece orchestra. Acoustic nylon string guitar with NO sound reinforcement and I heard him just fine 3/4 of the way to the back of the venue. Now that's dynamics!

Back to the original question. Why do drummers play loud? Personally, I think part of it has to do with tone. For the first part of my career I was a loud & proud rocker. Frankly, I love a drummer that sounds like he's playing cannons. Just like a speaker, a drum head responds differently at different levels. Again, IMO, a drum played with authority sounds better. It also sounds loud. The simple answer is a plexi cage so the soundman actually does have some CONTROL over the mix. Why do you think they use drum rooms in the studio? I gotta side with the drummers here. With every instrument the players range for the good to the bad and ugly. I've worked with bass players, drummers, and guitar players that could blow the buttons off your shirt with their stage volume. Heck, I've done it myself. It took experience and some maturity to finally understand the dynamics of a mix both out front and on the stage.

Regarding soundmen...if you don't trust your soundman implicitly then it's time to get a new soundman. If anyone can't take what he says as a constructive critique, they have an ego problem. If you can't work as a team then it's not a band, It's just a bunch of opinionated egos on a stage. The soundman is the MOST important person there. It doesn't even matter what it sounds like on the stage, or even what you play, if it sounds like a cat fight out front. Trust your soundman and LISTEN to him. I think every musician - even steel players

- should sit behind a console and mix as often as they can. That's how you come to understand a mix image.

Someone mentioned Sonny Rawlins earlier. I saw Sonny at Chicagofest about 15 years ago. Even back then he had a plexi shield around his miced up drummer. I was backstage and behind the shield it sounded the the sinking of the Bismark. Out front it was balanced, clear and the drums had killer tone. As players we all take advantage of technology with amps, effects, mics, etc.. Allow the drummers the same priviledge.

Just my $.02

Don

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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it! ~ Yogi Berra

Bill Ferguson · Post by **Bill Ferguson** » 4 Aug 2004 9:26 am

Don, you just summed it up in a nutshell (well almost)
As a sound man and a picker, I agree with you 100%.
EVERYONE on stage and OFF stage have to respect each other or is will be a diaster.

Bill Ferguson

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Aug 2004 2:47 pm

Don well said especially that 2nd to last paragraph.

My last year in NYC I played contrabass on and recorded Caramina Burana with Vance George of the San Fransico Choral Society, and Symphony as guest conductor.
He had won the grammy that year for it. with SFS & CS.

We had 72 players AND 450 voices.....
Now that's dynamics like Don was saying.
I got it all into 2 PZM microphones.

Just under 2000 in the audience.

There is a drum anecdote with it also.
it was in the 2nd largst catherderal in NYC, with a SEVEN second reverb time...
and a bad beat frequency conflict after 5 seconds.

We did 2 of 23 momvements in the church for a warm up,
and it was quickly decided all the 2 measure rests between sections HAD to become conductors mark rests. He'll then give us a measure to reset time.

No choice in the matter we had to let the room decay before each section!!

Well in the 1st section there is this wonderful cressendo, with BIG tympany,
but the drummer missed his cut off from the conductor....OOPS.

He just keep building.... until his mallet snapped....
It flew 40 feet in the air and came down inside the grand piano. CRANGE!!!!!

Sort pause to empty the piano, and then 22 more sections.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 04 August 2004 at 03:57 PM.]

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 5 Aug 2004 6:14 pm

David -

That drum story is funny stuff. I've never recorded in a large church but I have played in one. I know what you mean about the decay on the room. We did a Bach piece with some blistering baroque string lines and in the room it just all ran together. Sounded terrible - ha ha

Don

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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it! ~ Yogi Berra

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 7 Aug 2004 2:19 pm

Don, I have it on tape somewhere, it was a real nice clanger.
This was the NY Choral Festival, with winners from elementary school to university choir competitions for the whole state, and 4 serious guest solo singers, I think for The MET.

I was setting up well before the show, and a lone trumpeter was in the room playing REALLY long notes and messing with the acoustics.
That beat frequency afer 5 seconds coming form the unequal naves was horrendous...

I already imagined Mr. George's reaction. Or is that consternation.

We had one orchestra rehersal, with our regular conductor, no voices.
One in the church basement that held 520 players / singers.
And then one hour before the show...
we ALL heard this room, and went HUH. HUUUUUH!!
Oops.

Only St John the Divine is bigger in NYC... and sounds better.
But we couldn't get it.

I could see this drummer was bright red from the bass section 35 feet away. LOL. Poor SOB.
But the piano player was a bit shook too, chicken little syndrome.

A good drummer is a joy forever.. or at least until the carpel tunnels get closed.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 07 August 2004 at 03:21 PM.]

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 7 Aug 2004 3:53 pm

On one recent job it was a common complaint that the drums were too loud....as a result of the complaints, the theater built an enclosure for the drums to contain the sound, and then the complaint was that....the drums couldn't be heard!

Is there a anti-drum bias here?
www.genejones.com

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 8 Aug 2004 6:47 am

Nope, just BAD drummer bias.

Toby Rider · Post by **Toby Rider** » 11 Aug 2004 2:08 pm

"I have found that most all who are loud started out playing rock music, which is kinda poor training anyway...roughly analogous to an opthalmic surgeon starting out as a meatcutter in a slaughter-house. Rock music must be loud for people to like it. Loud is good, louder is better. That's rock."

Amen to that.. The drummer in my current band is a total rocker.. He didn't even know who George Jones was, till I educated him

He's extremely heavy-handed!

I sure wished I had the drummer whom I play with in Church, to play in my country band. He's really busy with his own business, and just makes the time to play in Church because of the whole "time, talent, treasure" thing..

Dale Bessant · Post by **Dale Bessant** » 14 Aug 2004 6:04 pm

In some cases its simple,..........THEY ARE NOT MUSICIANS........they are time keepers......

Gord Cole · Post by **Gord Cole** » 15 Aug 2004 4:21 pm

Can you hear me now???

Gary C. Dygert · Post by **Gary C. Dygert** » 22 Sep 2004 10:13 am

I watched a band set up recently, and the drummer had six mikes, one on each drum and one inside the bass drum. I left before they started playing.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 22 Sep 2004 10:20 am

Well at least he wasn't micing the cymbals too!

I was at the GrandOle Opry 2 fridays ago, and there were at least 8 mics on the drums there.

The kit was also in a baffled clear plexiglass walle in area, or gobos if it were a studio situation.
It sounded perfect and all on stage also sounded fine.

No one was straining to sing right, and the audience on average 20 years older than me was happy as clams with the sound levels.

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 22 Sep 2004 10:22 am

Tony...Can I quote you on the surgeon starting out as a meat cutter analogy...thats the funniest thing I've heard in a while.

: )

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 23 Sep 2004 3:04 pm

Ya know, that's the great thing about doing recording sessions with a drummer, you can put them in the mix very low, or take them completely out if you want.
Most of the drummers I've work with in my forty some odd years of playing, were pretty tasteful about their volume, I think it's a New Wave thing again, all the young studs showing their selves off to a girlfriend or just plain ego.
JMHO
Gene

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!