New to me S12U Sierra: Teach me about my copedent.

[Colin Boutilier]

I just picked up my first big-kid steel, as I prepare to graduate from my Carter Starter. This Sierra came up locally for a fair price, which is rare occasion in this part of the world, so I jumped on the chance. To the best of my understanding, she's a 1999 Sierra Session S-12 Universal 8x5. I've attached some photos in a Google Drive link, since my photos were too large to attach directly.

The copedent appears to have started life as a standard Sierra E9/B6 Universal https://b0b.com/tunings/sierra.html but has had a few little changes from what I can figure out:
- LKR/Lock has a rod added to lower the 2nd string with the 4&8 Es, but it has been tuned out to do nothing.
- P5 has the 1st string raise removed
- P8 has the 11th string lower removed
- RKR uses the 2nd string half step lower as a functional half-stop for the 9th string raise(s) from B
- edit to add: LKV goes up the full step to G#

A few notes and questions I have:

- I grew up on Franklin's 90s catalog. If I were to be inclined to add his changes to P4, what should/would I sacrifice from the B6 stuff to do it? I haven't even started looking at the 6th side of these instruments yet, and will rarely have the chance to play any western swing live. That said, I really look forward to finding ways to implement that tuning in other music. I'm a huge blues-blues/rock fan.
- I've immediately found utility in the 1st string raise on LKV. I look forward to exploring its uses more.
- If Jim still has parts available, should I look at adding a RKV and/or a P0/P9?
- This guitar is equipped with the George L's Sierra 1 pickup. Is this based on one of their aftermarket pickups? I assume its a low-wind humbucker of some kind? I'll likely start collecting different pickups for this, since its so easy to swap them.
- Any known quirks, issues, or limitations with these guitars that I should know about?
- the roller nut ratttles/buzzes on the 12 string. Is there a solution to that?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Bonus clip of my first time sitting down to practice on this thing, straight into my old Tubeworks Tube Driver combo amp.
https://youtube.com/shorts/QbsQDuio-AM

[Andrew Frost]

Heya Colin
Congrats on the new instrument.

Here are some thoughts.
Right knee vertical levers are not that common because that leg and foot are dealing with the volume pedal.
Occasionally you'll see one but it is rare.
I don't think you need a 9th pedal.
That current set up could keep any player busy for a lifetime or two.
Most uni's have only 7 pedals anyway but having 8 allows you to have 5 pedals doing C6 changes.
A lot of D10 players scrap the C6 pedal 4 ( As to Bs ) in order to install a different change. This is the equivalent of your A# raises. Personally I think that is a really nice pedal, but if you really wanted to have a Franklin change or something else, you could use that pedal and still have the changes on P5-8 that are commonly used.

I think if you like the 90s E9 sound you should find a way to get a whole tone raise on string 1 ( F# to G#).
I'd suggest swapping your LKV with your RKL so that your Bb's would be on the Vertical and your F# raises on RKL, but set them up and tune them to go up a whole tone (F# - G#).
You might want to consider only lowering the higher B to Bb as well on that vertical lever.

The string 1 raise you say you're missing on pedal 5 is based on the old school 'G on top' C6 tuning. The G would usually go to G# on that pedal. ( D9#11 ). Its a useful change but a lot of set ups don't have it since the more modern ''D on top'' C6 tuning doesn't have it.
On that note, the extra lower on string 2 you mention is most likely to get a C# when Es are lowered/locked. This is the B6 equivalent of the D on top of C6.

All that said, it looks like there's a ton of music in that guitar as it is, based on your description.
Good luck with everything!
AF

[Colin Boutilier]

Heya Colin
Congrats on the new instrument.

Here are some thoughts.
Right knee vertical levers are not that common because that leg and foot are dealing with the volume pedal.
Occasionally you'll see one but it is rare.
I don't think you need a 9th pedal.
That current set up could keep any player busy for a lifetime or two.
Most uni's have only 7 pedals anyway but having 8 allows you to have 5 pedals doing C6 changes.
A lot of D10 players scrap the C6 pedal 4 ( As to Bs ) in order to install a different change. This is the equivalent of your A# raises. Personally I think that is a really nice pedal, but if you really wanted to have a Franklin change or something else, you could use that pedal and still have the changes on P5-8 that are commonly used.

I think if you like the 90s E9 sound you should find a way to get a whole tone raise on string 1 ( F# to G#).
I'd suggest swapping your LKV with your RKL so that your Bb's would be on the Vertical and your F# raises on RKL, but set them up and tune them to go up a whole tone (F# - G#).
You might want to consider only lowering the higher B to Bb as well on that vertical lever.

The string 1 raise you say you're missing on pedal 5 is based on the old school 'G on top' C6 tuning. The G would usually go to G# on that pedal. ( D9#11 ). Its a useful change but a lot of set ups don't have it since the more modern ''D on top'' C6 tuning doesn't have it.
On that note, the extra lower on string 2 you mention is most likely to get a C# when Es are lowered/locked. This is the B6 equivalent of the D on top of C6.

All that said, it looks like there's a ton of music in that guitar as it is, based on your description.
Good luck with everything!
AF

My LKV actually does go up to the full-step bend. I've been using it for some unison bending with String 3.

[Andrew Frost]

My LKV actually does go up to the full-step bend. I've been using it for some unison bending with String 3.

Aha very nice.
That change really comes alive if it can be easily and comfortably combined with A/B/C pedal action as well as lowering and raising Es. For example, Es lowered with B pedal, (B7), then the G# lever to make B13. Personally I find that type of thing easier with the string 1 raise on a separate knee.

[Colin Boutilier]

That does sound fun.

I've been fooling around with doing a 1 and 3 unison thing with the vertical, and then releasing it into some basic A+B pedal twangy bits.

[Andrew Frost]

Ya that's a great use for it, for sure.
You can put that G# on top of a whole lot of stuff.

[Colin Boutilier]

Ya that's a great use for it, for sure.
You can put that G# on top of a whole lot of stuff.

I just played around with the B6 tuning for a few minutes. That's sure a brain overload...

But it was immediately clear why the Bbs are on the RKL when making chords in the 6th tuning. I'd need a Newman style long vertical to be able to use that change with my left leg.

[J D Sauser]

I just picked up my first big-kid steel, as I prepare to graduate from my Carter Starter.
A few notes and questions I have:

- I grew up on Franklin's 90s catalog. If I were to be inclined to add his changes to P4, what should/would I sacrifice from the B6 stuff to do it? ...

Congrats on your upgrade.

IF the PF pedal is important to you, I would sacrifice the first B6th pedal (#4 raising the G#'s a whole step to Bb). C, B and Bb 6th players have ditched that pedal for other changes.
I must also admit that on an E9th Universal, the B6th "side" (while I don't like to look at it as two systems) is less "developed" than a dedicated 6th tuning or an "inverted" Universal (like Maurice's Bb6th/"Universal" which in turn had a "lite" Eb9th-end).
Still, Maurice as well as many other E9th/B6th players could play "real Jazz" on their guitars... in part because the understood and played it as "ONE" tuning.

Have fun with the "new" guitar!... J-D.

[Colin Boutilier]

I just picked up my first big-kid steel, as I prepare to graduate from my Carter Starter.
A few notes and questions I have:

- I grew up on Franklin's 90s catalog. If I were to be inclined to add his changes to P4, what should/would I sacrifice from the B6 stuff to do it? ...

Congrats on your upgrade.

IF the PF pedal is important to you, I would sacrifice the first B6th pedal (#4 raising the G#'s a whole step to Bb). C, B and Bb 6th players have ditched that pedal for other changes.
I must also admit that on an E9th Universal, the B6th "side" (while I don't like to look at it as two systems) is less "developed" than a dedicated 6th tuning or an "inverted" Universal (like Maurice's Bb6th/"Universal" which in turn had a "lite" Eb9th-end).
Still, Maurice as well as many other E9th/B6th players could play "real Jazz" on their guitars... in part because the understood and played it as "ONE" tuning.

Have fun with the "new" guitar!... J-D.

It would make sense for my tuning to lean more into the E9th side of life, as 95% of my interest and playing is likely to be in the traditional country and country-rock vein. That's where the PF4 pedal seems to make sense to me. I'm not nearly advanced in my playing enough to need a 4th E9 pedal, by any stretch of the imagination, but I know that in my part of the world my moneymaker will end up being cover-band gigs hammering out AJ/B&D covers.

In my limited understanding of C6th music and changes, it seems to me that the E9/B6 tuning is really just an extended E9 with a low 5 and the low 7th on a knee. It seems to me like it would be hard to go "full 6th" on the single neck without adding a middle set of left knee levers. When it comes to the 5-8 pedals, I'm (at least for now) stuck thinking about it as seperate sides due to the lock lever and E lowers on LKR set-up on this guitar.

I'm not likely to play a lot of jazz anytime soon, as I don't even listen to much jazz myself. I am a huge blues fan though, so I'm hoping I can find some utility for the B6th side in some rock and blues applications. In playing around with it last night, I really liked the timbre of the big open major/minor triads on the 6th side. I can certainly see me working those into my regular playing too.

[J D Sauser]

I just picked up my first big-kid steel, as I prepare to graduate from my Carter Starter.
A few notes and questions I have:

- I grew up on Franklin's 90s catalog. If I were to be inclined to add his changes to P4, what should/would I sacrifice from the B6 stuff to do it? ...

Congrats on your upgrade.

IF the PF pedal is important to you, I would sacrifice the first B6th pedal (#4 raising the G#'s a whole step to Bb). C, B and Bb 6th players have ditched that pedal for other changes.
I must also admit that on an E9th Universal, the B6th "side" (while I don't like to look at it as two systems) is less "developed" than a dedicated 6th tuning or an "inverted" Universal (like Maurice's Bb6th/"Universal" which in turn had a "lite" Eb9th-end).
Still, Maurice as well as many other E9th/B6th players could play "real Jazz" on their guitars... in part because the understood and played it as "ONE" tuning.

Have fun with the "new" guitar!... J-D.

It would make sense for my tuning to lean more into the E9th side of life, as 95% of my interest and playing is likely to be in the traditional country and country-rock vein. That's where the PF4 pedal seems to make sense to me. I'm not nearly advanced in my playing enough to need a 4th E9 pedal, by any stretch of the imagination, but I know that in my part of the world my moneymaker will end up being cover-band gigs hammering out AJ/B&D covers.

In my limited understanding of C6th music and changes, it seems to me that the E9/B6 tuning is really just an extended E9 with a low 5 and the low 7th on a knee. It seems to me like it would be hard to go "full 6th" on the single neck without adding a middle set of left knee levers. When it comes to the 5-8 pedals, I'm (at least for now) stuck thinking about it as seperate sides due to the lock lever and E lowers on LKR set-up on this guitar.

I'm not likely to play a lot of jazz anytime soon, as I don't even listen to much jazz myself. I am a huge blues fan though, so I'm hoping I can find some utility for the B6th side in some rock and blues applications. In playing around with it last night, I really liked the timbre of the big open major/minor triads on the 6th side. I can certainly see me working those into my regular playing too.

In that case, understand that if you played E9th, you've played in "B6th mode" already as the E-to-Eb lever is a big part of that tuning's playing style. You added the B-Pedal or both the A-&-B-Pedals. Adding the traditional P5 change is the same than the later just 2 frets further down and releasing the E-Eb-lever is pretty much doing the same thing as pressing P6 putting the tuning into E7th (E9th is just an E7th with a 9th on top). So, when we discus the so-called "Diminished Pedals" (P5&6) you could on your Universal see the use of P5 just in E9th mode. This is why both, Maurice Anderson and Jeff Newan strongly advised against E-Eb-lever locks! Because E9th/B6th only offers it full potential if it's looked at as you say "an extended E9th based tuning AND setup".

You bought yourself a great "machine", which is VERY EASY to work on. And parts (rods, cross shafts and pull rods can be found).

... J-D.

[Lane Gray]

Colin, if you gravitate to blues, while there's a shedload of blues in the jazzy C6th, the E9th side has a metric crapton of blues.
My YouTube channel has four different blueses on the E9th
https://youtu.be/bB7Uw4A3OJI is one of them

[Colin Boutilier]

Congrats on your upgrade.

IF the PF pedal is important to you, I would sacrifice the first B6th pedal (#4 raising the G#'s a whole step to Bb). C, B and Bb 6th players have ditched that pedal for other changes.
I must also admit that on an E9th Universal, the B6th "side" (while I don't like to look at it as two systems) is less "developed" than a dedicated 6th tuning or an "inverted" Universal (like Maurice's Bb6th/"Universal" which in turn had a "lite" Eb9th-end).
Still, Maurice as well as many other E9th/B6th players could play "real Jazz" on their guitars... in part because the understood and played it as "ONE" tuning.

Have fun with the "new" guitar!... J-D.

It would make sense for my tuning to lean more into the E9th side of life, as 95% of my interest and playing is likely to be in the traditional country and country-rock vein. That's where the PF4 pedal seems to make sense to me. I'm not nearly advanced in my playing enough to need a 4th E9 pedal, by any stretch of the imagination, but I know that in my part of the world my moneymaker will end up being cover-band gigs hammering out AJ/B&D covers.

In my limited understanding of C6th music and changes, it seems to me that the E9/B6 tuning is really just an extended E9 with a low 5 and the low 7th on a knee. It seems to me like it would be hard to go "full 6th" on the single neck without adding a middle set of left knee levers. When it comes to the 5-8 pedals, I'm (at least for now) stuck thinking about it as seperate sides due to the lock lever and E lowers on LKR set-up on this guitar.

I'm not likely to play a lot of jazz anytime soon, as I don't even listen to much jazz myself. I am a huge blues fan though, so I'm hoping I can find some utility for the B6th side in some rock and blues applications. In playing around with it last night, I really liked the timbre of the big open major/minor triads on the 6th side. I can certainly see me working those into my regular playing too.

In that case, understand that if you played E9th, you've played in "B6th mode" already as the E-to-Eb lever is a big part of that tuning's playing style. You added the B-Pedal or both the A-&-B-Pedals. Adding the traditional P5 change is the same than the later just 2 frets further down and releasing the E-Eb-lever is pretty much doing the same thing as pressing P6 putting the tuning into E7th (E9th is just an E7th with a 9th on top). So, when we discus the so-called "Diminished Pedals" (P5&6) you could on your Universal see the use of P5 just in E9th mode. This is why both, Maurice Anderson and Jeff Newan strongly advised against E-Eb-lever locks! Because E9th/B6th only offers it full potential if it's looked at as you say "an extended E9th based tuning AND setup".

You bought yourself a great "machine", which is VERY EASY to work on. And parts (rods, cross shafts and pull rods can be found).

... J-D.

I look forward to mastering the "one big tuning" some day, and unlocking all that potential for chords and melodies. I'll check back in 40 years and let you know how I make out

[J D Sauser]

40years, huh!
I’ll be toast by then! Do it quicker please!


Bobbe Seymore pointed out in a C6th video somewhere on youTUBE, that everything more “in changes” is just REPETITION (redundancies)! And he was of course right.
So, look for repetitions, redundancies, along the neck and don’t get intimidated by the “machine” aspect of the instrument.., once you’ll learn it, you too will come to the conclusion that it is “all the same all over the place”. I would have found it helpful to have known THAT from the beginning and learned the instrument and MUSIC being aware of that simple fact.

… JD