Rickenbacker pickups & string balance

[Noah Miller]

I've owned two Rick 8-string steels (three necks total) with horseshoe pickups, and I'm noticing a pattern: the highest string is always weaker than the others. The Rick 6-stringers I've played didn't have this problem, but their high strings weren't quite as far toward the edge of the coil.

Is this a common issue, or am I just unlucky?

[chas smith R.I.P.]

Rickenbacker, back in the 40's, was overstocked with 6-string pickups that they had wound, So, to make an 8-string pickup, sometimes they scabbed a pole on each end of the the 6-string pup and added a few more windings. I have D-8 guitar that has that "feature".

[Rick Aiello]

The other issue is the gradient of flux density as you move toward the curve of the magnets ...

With a set of good cobalt steel horseshoes .... The flux density "at the mouth" is around 220 gauss (probe centered between magnet flanges) ... As you go toward the curves ... It drops by more than half ... And at the curve it is zero ...

The seven stringers were built differently ... A pole dead center in the gap between the two magnets ... The two bobbin mounting screws were steel and acted as pole pieces ... So the outermost two strings were very close to where the sixers are ...

What makes some 8's more noticeable than others ... Is toward the late 50's ... They started running out of the good cobalt stock ... So the highest mid gap reading can be as low as 90 gauss in some of the 60's horseshoes ...

When I made magnets for Lollar ... I made extra long ones for the 8 stringers ... I Called them " Longfellows" ...

The prewar 10 string Bakelites had very long magnets ... To help compensate for the physics of horseshoe magnet flux density distribution ...

[Noah Miller]

That makes sense, but the weird thing is that the low string - which is just as close to the end of the magnet and the end of the coil - is at normal strength.

Is it possible to raise the pole without damaging the bobbin, or is that a waste of time anyway?

[Rick Aiello]

Trying to raise the poles is a dangerous maneuver ...

The magnet wire is wound around that bare extra pole ... So trying to tap out a few mm will short the coil ...

And I've fixed more than a few bobbins where they cracked in half by folks trying to adjust the poles ... Those slugs are in tight ...

I'd be happy to remag yours ... Could be that the bass side magnet is stronger ( they rarely are within 20 gauss of each other) ... And over time they run down 40+ %

But before messing with anything .. Try putting a bigger string on there ... Could be as simple as increasing the diameter of the hi string to achieve a more balanced output ...

I use an 0.017 E ....

[Frank Welsh]

Noah, my issue with my 6 string Rickenbacher hollow body steel (from around 1932)is that the third string is noticeably weaker than the rest - about half the volume. There is no apparent damage to the pickup and everything "looks" normal. The output and tone from all the other strings is just great.

Could it be that there is something inherent in the aging process of the horseshoe pickup design that results in this problem regardless of the number of strings? I can't figure out why the one string should be relatively weak and the others so strong.

I use standard strings sets that balance perfectly volume-wise on all my other steels, so it's not the string that's the problem.

I wonder if we both have the same cause for our pickup problems - perhaps something inside the pickup degrades over a long period of time.

[Rick Aiello]

Frank, take a flashlight and look in there ... A big issue with horseshoe pickups is string placement over the pole ...

Unlike pole's that are magnets ... Or pickups that use screws (with big heads) ... The slugs in Rickys are quite tiny ... And the string placement over the pole is a much bigger issue than units with alnico poles, etc.

Check to see if that string is centered over the slug ... Bad bridge slotting jobs sometime results in the string sitting off to the left or right ...

There really isn't much going on inside a Ricky unit ... Just 38 AWG wound around a Bakelite core with imbedded iron slugs ... So without having the unit here, it's tough to diagnose issues ...

The only other thing I can think of that would screw up output to just one string ... Is if the iron slug in question has oxidized badly and/or has lost contact with the bottom flange of the magnet ...

Just trying to help

[Chris Lucker]

I had the single ten that Jon frye made for Eddie Bush of the Royal Hawaiians in 1961. Nice rosewood guitar with a rickenbacker ten string horseshoe pickup. It only really picked up the middle eight strings. Despite the strings having the pickups intended spacing.
On Bigsby blade pickups, on the other hand, you can pickup way outside the blade.

[Noah Miller]

The magnet wire is wound around that bare extra pole ... So trying to tap out a few mm will short the coil ...

But before messing with anything .. Try putting a bigger string on there.

Ah, good to know. Forget it then, I'm perfectly happy with a B7 instead of a B8. I tried a larger string, but it didn't make nearly enough difference.

[Frank Welsh]

Rick, Noah, all six strings pass directly over the centers of their respective polepieces of the pickup in my N.S. model Rick.

I suspect oxidation is the problem (now 82 years old!! - the pickup, not me - yet) and may also be the issue with the other pickups mentioned in this thread. When I bought the guitar some 20 years ago, there were touches of rust on the back as well as around the string anchoring holes behind the bridge. Prior to my ownership there may have been questionable storage conditions for this guitar.

Perhaps the overall condition of Noah's guitar can give some similar clue to the problem with his pickup.

Thanks for the info.

[Joe Burke]

I too am having a problem with my Rickenbacker 8 string pick up. The 8th sting (lowest) is noticeably weaker than the rest. And the 7th slightly weaker. I'm taking it to get looked at tomorrow morning. Possible get it re magnetized.

Otherwise it's a beautiful sounding lap steel!

If anyone has any new suggestions, I'd love to hear from you.

[Joe Burke]

Here’s a follow up to my Rickenbacker horseshoe pickup question above.

I took it to a local (Near Toronto) pickup expert. He’d worked on a lot of Rickenbacker and other string thru pick ups. Right we he notice that the nut, that the string rest on before they go through the pick up, had worn down. In other words the strings were sitting on the Bakelite, and therefore not giving a clear sound.

He replaced that nut and re magnetized the pick up (and cleaned up the wiring).

It now sounds beautiful! Better than when I bought it!

Here’s an after photo.

[David DeLoach]

Is this an issue with the Rickenbacher 7 string pickups?

[Mark McCornack]

Hi Joe,
These are interesting pictures before and after of the work done on your Rick. I have a DC-16 (double neck 8-string) and am also encountering a lower output from sting 8 on both necks, similar to that which you have described.
Also, note this interesting similarity between our guitars (this picture, versus your “before” photo)



See how the 8th string in noticeably closer to the adjacent string (7) than any other strings? I assume the bridge was intentionally cut this way, and both necks have this anomaly. I noticed in your “after” picture of your guitar (with the new bridge), the string spacing is even across all strings. On mine, the 8th string appears to be going over the pole piece but perhaps not dead on.

For starters, I may try and cobble up a new bridge where I can make minor adjustments to where each string goes over their respective poles. Worst case scenario, if I can’t bring up the amplitude on string 8, I could slightly offset all the other strings and take an overall signal-to-noise ratio hit, but at least I could even it out.

I’m open to any other suggestions anyone might have here. It seems this is a common problem on these old Rickenbackers. Other than this issue, I LOVE the tone on this guitar and would like to make it all right.

Mark.

Hard to tell, but maybe the string (8th) is off center of the pole a bit. If so, it’s not by much, but something to try. Those poles are mighty skinny!

[Twayn Williams]

I just picked up a 40's 6 string panda, but the low string is weak and the top string is too hot. I've fiddled with the height adjustment screws, but it doesn't seem to make much difference.

For the top string being too hot, I've swapped in a much lighter string -- a 14 in place of a 17 -- but it seems to have make only a slight difference, not nearly enough. I'm not willing to modify the bridge as the string spacing is perfectly correct.

Does the pickup need to be remagnitized? Are there any other options? Or do I need to bite the bullet and order a new pickup from Lollar?

[Rick Aiello]

Before doing anything drastic … look to see if the “stagger” of poles isn’t too drastic … some are virtually flush (I like better) … some have a little stagger … then some have real tall poles for the high string.

See if you can get a photo of the bobbin top and put it up here …

[Twayn Williams]

Thanks for the advice! Here's a pair of photos, hopefully clear enough...

[Rick Aiello]

The stagger looks good …

Might be as simple as a weak magnet …

If you feel comfortable taking the unit apart … you can remag it at home

https://youtu.be/G8v8-Nc_Yy4?si=LNOqPyd0fIpnkBLf

[Rick Aiello]

To rule out coil issues … can you take a DC Resistance … should be around 1.5 kOhm if wound with 38 AWG ….

A coil with a short can still have output , but it’s real trebly with no bass … capacitance coupling

[Twayn Williams]

To rule out coil issues … can you take a DC Resistance … should be around 1.5 kOhm if wound with 38 AWG ….

A coil with a short can still have output , but it’s real trebly with no bass … capacitance coupling

Thanks for the input and the vid! I'm not sure I want to take the pickup apart myself, probably talk to Rusty Blake first Good to know the stagger is within standard norms -- though my other Rickeys are less severe.

I'm pretty sure there's no short in the coil as the pickup sounds nice and full, like my other 2 Rickys. It just has the slightly weak low string and the overly hot high string. The other strings are nice and balanced.

I'll try the remag first and if that doesn't resolve the issue, I'll get a new pickup :sigh: Always a risk buying sight unseen.

[Michael Kiese]

Trying to raise the poles is a dangerous maneuver ...

Aloha Rick,

Rather trying to raise the poles, is stacking some small steel washers on top of the pole to get it closer to the string a possible workaround?

It's a non-invasive course of action.

I tried doing that before I learned how to remag the horseshoes myself. Seemed to help somewhat. It was just a pain trying to get them to maintain their position, lol.

[Rick Aiello]

I usually ask folks who send in horseshoes to fix … if they want me to “trim up” those poles some , when they are long … it’s just easier to get an even balance when the stagger isn’t prevalent …

There is so little real estate to begin with , I never really understood the tendency toward stagger in the later years. Most of the early stuff that has come through here is flush …

I use a little barrel sander on my Dremel … just watch the first and sixth poles, the early coils used to file off the Bakelite on the ends of the bobbin and solder the start of the magnet wire there …

As for extensions, sure … magnetic lines of force prefer to run through steel

[Twayn Williams]

Ok, now I'm embarrassed, but hopefully someone in future will learn from my mistake.

TLDR: a massive adjustment to the treble side of the pickup has solved my issue

I talked to Russ Blake at 12th Fret here in Portland and he recommended that I bring the guitar in along with my other Panda that has the correct string balance so we could compare. He also -- like many already in this thread and elsewhere -- recommended that I first fiddle with the pickup height adjustment screws. And something he said put a tickle in my brain: that if you adjust too far, the string will hit the horseshoe and ground out.

Well, when I got the guitar earlier this week, the bass side was indeed hitting the horseshoe, and I did adjust the height on the bass side just to the point where it was no longer touching. I also adjusted the treble side, by about the same amount, but didn't hear any volume difference in the top string. I fiddled around with the treble side a bit more, but still didn't hear any discernible difference in volume, so "assumed" that the problem was a bad pole piece stagger, hence my appeal to this forum.

But, just bit ago, I decided to try and adjust the treble side again and accidently adjusted it way up till it hit the high string, which became painfully loud. So the eureka moment went off and I threw caution to the winds and went to town lowering the treble side, and low and behold! All my strings are now balanced!

Goes to show that my experience with adjusting humbuckers and p90's meant squat when it came to these old horseshoes! Partially, I didn't want the screw to come loose and the spring to fall into the guitar -- which is something I've done before with other pickups -- so I was being overly cautious.

Anyway, hopefully someone in the future will read this and not make my mistake

[Rick Aiello]

I’m happy it all worked out

Height adjustment is tricky … specially with the tall polls … that sweet spot can be hard to find.

Good job