Who's right? Producers or Musicians?

Jeremy Steele · Post by **Jeremy Steele** » 28 Feb 2003 12:49 pm

The folks who play in the Broadway pit orchestras here in NYC are getting ready to strike. They want to be able to insist on a minimum complement of musicians for each given show, depending upon the size of the venue and other variables. The producers say that some shows don't require a 24 piece ensemble, and local 802 has no right to compel them to pay musicians who basically aren't needed. I see merit in both arguments...what do you think?

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny--broadwaymusicians0225feb25,0,4214097.story?coll=ny-ap-regional-wire

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 28 Feb 2003 1:22 pm

The Show hires a Producer to produce the show...the producer arranges the show and musicians to meet his obligation of putting on the best show he is paid to do...
His call is the bottom line...and if he calls the union to arrange a certain orchestra...than that's what he gets...and if he doesn't want that certain orchestra...he should look elsewhere...
Catch 22> nobody wins...everybody looses.
Ricky

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 28 Feb 2003 2:59 pm

I agree with Ricky -- everybody looses. The musicians have a right to organize and a right to strike. However, the producers also have the right not to hire the musicians at all if their demands are unreasonable -- hence everybody looses.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 28 Feb 2003 3:17 pm

Sounds like trying to tell a baseball manager that he has to have 15 players on the field when he knows he only needs 9. Maybe they should negotiate salary caps for the orchestra. With salary caps on the orchestra wonder how much scale would be or how many players would be there then? The trouble with all unions is they try to muscle the guy paying the money to the union members so they can get more revenue and common sense doesn't come into play at all. The producer is the boss and should always be the boss. He's paying for it or representing the guy who's paying for it.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 Feb 2003 3:45 pm

Its what it is. And the way it is supposed to be. He who hires has the big stick, actually the only stick.

tp

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 28 Feb 2003 4:58 pm

I agree with the producers on this one. Most shows probably don't require 24 pieces to get the sound to where it should be. I mean, come on guys...the Glenn Miller Orchestra only has 20 pieces, and I don't think the Lawrence Welk Orchestra had 24 pieces, either! (But he sure did have a lot of singers!)

Jeremy Steele · Post by **Jeremy Steele** » 3 Mar 2003 11:53 am

I think the main worry among the musos is that if they give ground here, they will be on the ol' slippery slope to extinction due the contstant advance of synthesizers, and the temptation some producers might succumb to to ditch the full horn section the score calls for and just use a trumpet, a bone, a sax, and a computer.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 3 Mar 2003 5:45 pm

Forced over-staffing is something that gives unions a bad name in many industries; built-in inefficiencies . Show biz is no exception.

If they're worried about synth then I guess they should be equally worried that they'll go to recorded music too.

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HagFan

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 3 Mar 2003 6:23 pm

So, I guess that means we'll never see the "Always Patsy" show or any of the Hank Williams tribute shows on Broadway, because they only call for a 5-piece band that fits in the back of a chevy. No, we'd have to have all of Patsy and Hank's music fully orchestrated at all times. Hello? Anybody for integrity?

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 3 Mar 2003 10:03 pm

Jim
As I understand it, a particular show doesn't have to have all the musicians performing, but it has to have a certain number musicians on the payroll. I understand the required number of players varies with the size/business of the venue. Of course, it's inflationary and one of the contributing reasons why ticket prices for Broadway productions are through the roof.

This information came to me through some of the players in the "Best Little Whorehouse" production during its run in NYC back in the late 70's.

Can you say "featherbedding?" I believe that's the commonly used expression for this practice. One of the less endearing things about trade unionism, which I generally support.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 4 Mar 2003 1:37 am

Last week Wendy and I saw the best sounding musical I've ever been to. This was in the West End in London- "We will Rock You".
The band were so good that they took an curtain call of their own.
Two Guitarists, Bass, Keyboards, Drums.
a Twenty Four piece orchestra- don't make me laugh! They were supposed to sound like Queen (and they did)!
Every musical I've seen for the last few years have been based on current music- Even Les Miserables had a rock band in the pit.
My colleague here has been writing a Musical which will be on in Los Angeles later this spring, and the soundtrack has all been played in a little cottage in the Abberley hills (UK) on Electric Guitar, Bass, and a sequencer playing out through Gigasampler and a Roland 1010 sound module. For a budget of $5000 for music, that's all you are gonna get!
Cheers
Dave
[This message was edited by Dave Boothroyd on 04 March 2003 at 01:38 AM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 4 Mar 2003 11:01 am

Herb's right - "Best Little Whorehouse..." was forced to pay 'walkers'; the AFM insisted on a minimum of twenty-five musicians, the show required a maximum of nine, and they had to pay sixteen players $470 per week (this was 1982, remember) just to sit at home. I did the show in London's West End with no such restrictions at the Drury Lane Theatre with the Broadway production team and 'leads', and we had six in the band.

They moved the New York company to Boston, then back to NYC, but the AFM jumped on them again, enforcing the '25 minimum' rule. The only 'ground' that the producers gained in this struggle was the concession that the 'walkers' actually had to go to the theatre and sign-in in order to get the money.

In the end, the producers simply gave up the fight - it's difficult to know how much longer it might have run, but it's a safe bet that the AFM in their infinite wisdom cost some musicians their jobs.

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Roger Rettig

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 4 Mar 2003 11:09 am

The Railroad unions started what was known as "Featherbedding", i.e. requiring positions in a contract that were not needed!

Just one more reason why unions are facing extinction by a decreasing membership!

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 4 Mar 2003 12:34 pm

There's a similar current story of the Union canceling a show at http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum14/HTML/001149.html .