Counting off songs

Randy Wade · Post by **Randy Wade** » 23 Mar 2004 3:49 pm

What is the correct way to count off a 4/4 intro that starts on the third beat of the measure? Ive been going "1,2,3,4,1,2" but should I shorten that down some way or what?
Your advise would be appreciated.

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 23 Mar 2004 3:59 pm

I have heard it counted 3,4,1,2,but I think the full count gives a better timing setup.

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Bill Ford

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 23 Mar 2004 4:07 pm

Disclaimer: the following is just my personal experience and may not apply to anybody else:

I think that if you count it off the first way, 1-2-3-4-1-2, you may confuse some members of the band, because they won't know how long you're going to keep on counting ("is he gonna give a "3" too?) and some might have already come in on the second "1". So they don't know how many pickup beats to expect, if any, unless you've told them in advance and are really only counting for tempo.

Whereas, if you count 3-4-1-2, I think most players would expect the next two beats (3-4) to be the pickup beats. I think a lot of players "expect" to hear 4 beats worth of a count-off, so if you say 3-4-1-2, they expect the next 3-4 to be the two pickup beats.

Of course, I could be all wrong about that. Wouldn't be the first time... Just ask Paul Polish!

(inside joke)

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 23 Mar 2004 4:22 pm

If the band has worked together any length of time, a count-off is unnecessary. The first two notes played in the kick-off should be enough to let the band know when to come in.

Other than that situation being the case, "1-2-3-4-1-2" siginifies a 4/4 bass part, and "1-pause-2-pause-1-2" signifies a 2/4 bass part.

If anything is different than that, you need to have a discussion with the rhythm section, difficult as that might be.

Bear in mind, I live in TX. I'm spoiled.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Billy Wilson · Post by **Billy Wilson** » 23 Mar 2004 4:42 pm

I believe Lawrence Welk set the standard for this: Uh One anna Two anna...

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 23 Mar 2004 5:26 pm

The band I gig weekly with is a loose collection of pickers, mostly not country guys. Almost every song is just sort of strummed into by the leader/singer/acoustic guitar player. Lately I decided to try to bring some diversity into it by doing real, honest-to-goodness intros, starting slowly with one song---Tonight The Bottle Let me Down. I mean, what's the point of doing a song like that without its intro? (although I'm by no means religious about reproducing orignal stuff). So I'm trying to train the band with simple instructions and consistent terminology.
With "Bottle" I told them-----intro starts on 5 chord, I'll count off one bar, I'll pick three pickup notes, the band comes in on one.----- My count is "One Two Three Four (silent One)" and I start picking.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 23 Mar 2004 5:39 pm

3-4-1-2...

If they can't "get it" with that, they never will.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 24 Mar 2004 4:51 am

For you North Carolina pickers only!! Whatever you do "DON'T LET KENNY DAIL COUNT OFF A SONG" It goes like this "Stand by...one, what come's after one... TWO KENNY....Thanks, stand by, one..two..damn, what comes after two?....THREE KENNY ...thanks again, stand by...one, two, three, oh hell, just jump in where you want to...... Have a good 'un (I'm just messin' with my illegitimate father...JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 24 Mar 2004 5:12 am

Yeah Jerry
But with this advancing senility in Ole KD, he can hide his own Easter Eggs this year.

He also wakes up with a different woman every morning too.

So it probably isn't too bad looking at it from his perspective.

Tony Farr · Post by **Tony Farr** » 24 Mar 2004 6:28 am

Like Herb, sys, if you have been playing together for any time, you shouldn't have to count anything off. Especially the older songs, two pick up notes on either the steel or guitar should get anyone into a good country song. If a band does any practice time, they shouldn't have to count off any songs or stand around asking, what key are we in? But they will.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 24 Mar 2004 8:35 am

I remember one front-man who counted everything off "l-2-3-4-play", to make sure that everyone started playing at the same time.....and it didn't matter whether it was a 4/4, 2/4, or a waltz!

www.genejones.com

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 24 Mar 2004 8:54 am

Gene
A Front man does that to make the audience think he is in Charge, We all know its the Steel Player.

I agree with Herb, about counting being unnecessary, Don't remember much counting going on When I was a Nashburg picker.

I think its looks unprofessional as hell to Count everything off, especially when they guy counting doesn't know how to do it.

And while I'm on the subject of looking professional, I hate it when some picker gets up before the gig and noodles and doodles with his guitar and plays every lick he knows before the gig starts, Who in the hell do they think they are impressing.

The first Sound coming from the Stage should be the 1st note of the 1st song.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 24 Mar 2004 10:21 am

3-4-1-2. I can't agree with not counting off.
Its the drummers job set set the tempos. VERY important job. Also, how would you know when to start if you don't have a count? It doesn't make any sense. We have routines where the lead singer talks between songs and the drummer knows to start the count when the lead singer utters a certain phrase. I have played with drummers who don't know how to count off a song, but just once as I would refuse to play with any drummer who can't (I was a trained jazz drummer for twelve years).

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 24 Mar 2004 10:28 am

I may not know how to count off a song, but I can sure tick off the other players!

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 24 Mar 2004 10:30 am

"noodles and doodles with his guitar and plays every lick he knows before the gig starts"

I'm in total agreement with this statement,as much of an impression was made many years ago,it went.......player setup his guitar,tuned it,the usual was,hit a few chords as to check string/pedal,covered it and went offstage,I thought,yeehah,not one blistering lick/run.The show started... this dude proceded to "SMOKE" it,best pickin I'd heard in a long while,who was it?? A younger Stu Bassore playing a Fender 1000....Dang he's good.

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Bill Ford

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 24 Mar 2004 10:39 am

I'll have to disagree with not noodling before a gig. If I drive to a job and I take my steel out of the case and set it up and tune it up and then wait to play sure as hell before the second tune is over it's out of tune. On this steel and the one's I've had before because of strings being sensitive to temperature and all, I need to play around on it before I attempt to tune it up. Then it will stay in tune after that. It's nice to have a dressing room or ready room to mess with your instruments before you take them on stage but that's not always the way it is. Just try driving an hour to a gig in 30 degree weather, take you guitar out of the case, tune it up and see what happens.....Have a good 'un, JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 24 Mar 2004 10:58 am

OK, Jerry, then let's revise that to "not noodling while the amp is ON".

Most folks don't care if you want to sit there and stretch your strings out, as long as nobody else hears it.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 24 Mar 2004 11:45 am

Around here, it generally goes like this:

Lead singer, to rest of band:
"This'uns in G chord."

(entire band then strums a G chord.... seemingly to check if it's still there) followed by the lead singers voice, singing:

"When my friiieeends gather 'round...."

At this point, the steel player, who has lovingly practiced Lloyd Green's intro for the last year breaks down and cries....

-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

Walter Stettner · Post by **Walter Stettner** » 24 Mar 2004 12:13 pm

Yeah, John, I did that one time as a lead singer - told the boys "This one's in G". Unfortunately it really should have been in D. They were all having a ball while I struggled through that song in the wrong key. Must have sounded like Caruso in a bathtub!

Kind Regards, Walter
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

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Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 24 Mar 2004 12:32 pm

I think about everything has been said, except maybe the count should be in the same tiempo the song is to be played. Jody.

jlsmith48 · Post by **jlsmith48** » 24 Mar 2004 12:40 pm

How do you guys kick start a waltz?

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 24 Mar 2004 1:10 pm

Amen Herb, I guess all us Tx folks have been spoiled by great honky sidemen. CC

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 24 Mar 2004 1:14 pm

In our band, the drummer starts the tunes off with clicking his sticks together, discreetly.It seems to work very well for us. When I work with guys I don't know, I like to start off certain tunes with the long count (1-2-3-4-1-2) that way I can also control the tempo by the way I call the count. But, even with that, it can be like a runaway train down a mountain.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 24 Mar 2004 1:16 pm

FWIW, I've started noticing the jazz guys only counting the first number out loud and then grunting the rest of the beats, like:

"ONE - Huhn - Huhn, huhn, huhn"

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 24 Mar 2004 3:10 pm

Just try driving an hour to a gig in 30 degree weather, take you guitar out of the case, tune it up and see what happens.....

Where are you carrying that guitar, in the bed of a pickup truck or on the roof?, put the damn thing inside where there is some heat or AC in the case of summer

You get to the gig early enough to let the guitar sit out and come to room temperature 15 to 20 minutes is usually enough, then tune it, It works for me.

I suspect that you just want to impress all the Wannabee guitar players and old blue haired women who come to your gigs.

I worked a gig in the 70's in Gulfport Mississippi in the Cpo Club where on Saturday nights they had a big Buffet Dinner before the gig . I was told by the club Manager that he didn't want to hear any noise coming off the stage, while those customers were eating. The Korg WT-10 Tuner had just come out and I bought one, We Tuned Steel, Guitar and bass with that one tuner and complied with the Managers "Request". We worked that gig 52 weekends in that club in one year from the customers requests that the manager keep bringing us back. The Steel Player? Bill Stafford!!!

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 24 March 2004 at 04:18 PM.]