VII = V9 without root!

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 10 Aug 2004 7:34 am

Hi folks,

I never thought I used that funny half-diminished VII chord in a given key. I was lying in bed last night and it dawned on me that I use it all the time as the V9 chord! It's only missing the root. Cool!

Just thought I'd share my little revelation. I feel very smarty-pants now that I know I'm using the VII chord.

Any other common uses for this odd half-diminished creature?

-Sleep Deprived in L.A.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 10 Aug 2004 8:43 am

The most common use for a half-diminished chord is as the II chord in a minor key.

Typical 4-part voice leading: <pre>
A G# A
F E E
D D C
B B A

II - V - I</pre> in A minor.

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 10 Aug 2004 9:05 am

Cool EB I'll try that and give it a listen.

-GV

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 10 Aug 2004 6:38 pm

Ernest,

Why would that "II" chord not be a G9th chord? Instead of a "half diminished chord"? Was not your example in the key of Aminor which is a relative minor chord to the root chord in the key of C which contains as its dominant a G7th?

Or would the modernist call it a Bdim+7 chord

Like I believe they might call A C# E an E13sus4 chord

Thanks,

carl

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 10 Aug 2004 10:08 pm

Carl
Yes, that chord, BDFA, is often used as a G9 with root (G note) omitted. In fact, that's what this thread is about. Greg V noticed that in the key of C, the chord progression G9 -> C sounds very similar with the G vs without the G note.

Greg asked for other uses of the same chord BDFA. The example I gave in the key of A minor is the probably its most common usage. If you add a G note under BDFA in my example, it drastically changes the whole sound of that chord, which is why no one would refer to it as G9 with root omitted. Rather, it is just the very familiar II - V - I chord progression.

There are other uses of that same chord. In fact, it is a marvelously useful chord that has a nice, ambiguous sound that can resolve in unpredictable ways.

For example consider this progression which has been very much (over-)used in popular music for the last 50 years: <pre>
A A A A A
F F F F F
D D D D D
D C# C B Bb</pre>for example the intro to the Beatles' "Michelle", transposed to key of D. The 4th chord is our friend BDFA but it is not functioning as a G9 dominant in C, or as a II in A minor. Most people would call it a Dminor: either a d minor 6th, or a D dminor with added melodic passing tone.

Another example:
Key of F: <pre>
A A A A
F F F F
C D D D
F B Bb D</pre>
for example the first line of Billy Joel's "Just The Way You Are". Here the BDFA is a passing chord between I and IV, between F and Bb.

Sometimes BDFA is just a D minor chord, and the B is just for color, not used a a passing tone. For example, the first beat of Gershwin's "Summertime" in the key of D minor.

My favorite example of the half-diminished chord is the opening of Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde", transposed a tritone: <pre>
D Eb E F (Gb)
A A Ab Ab (Bb)
F F D D (Eb)
B B Bb Bb (Eb)

II V (I ) </pre> in E flat minor

I put the Eb minor resolution in parentheses because Wagner usually dosen't actually resolve it. Here, the BDFA is an F chord, II of E flat minor, with the seventh (soprano) diminished, but undiminishing itself to E flat immediately.

[This message was edited by Earnest Bovine on 10 August 2004 at 11:11 PM.]

John Kavanagh · Post by **John Kavanagh** » 11 Aug 2004 11:06 am

When I was at music school, my second-year harmony teacher insisted we call the viiø7 chord a V9 without the root, which struck me as pretty dumb - how can it be a G9 if it doesn't have a G in it? It often functions as a dominant, though, and of course on steel guitar you can usually rely on the bass player for the root. The teacher we had in third year made the point that what a chord does is more important than what it's called, and that Bø7 and G9 are BOTH "dominant" chords to C. This functional approach cuts through the nonesense of, for instance, whether there's "such a thing" as a 6th chord, or if F6 is really just an inversion of Dm7. He (the wise teacher) would say call them what you like, what's important is if they're acting as subdominants to C.

Here's another thing - take a diminished 7th chord and lower ANY note by a semitone and it becomes a half-diminished chord. Modulation trick of the masters. What's hard is rethinking the spelling each time.

I just read an article about Dizzy Gillespie, where he's talking about how important this chord was when the early beboppers were incorporating what we now think of as jazz harmony. Some would call it "B minor seventh, flat five" (Bm7b5), and some Bø7 (B half-diminished seventh. Theolonius Monk would call it "D minor sixth with B in the bass" (Dm6/B or just Dm/B). That doesn't make a whole lot of sense theoretically, but it does highlight the fact that this chord is a subdominant and a dominant squashed together. Whatever he called the chord, Monk certainly knew how to use it. [This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 11 August 2004 at 12:08 PM.]

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 11 Aug 2004 1:35 pm

Greg, I guess you could also look at it as a voicing for a II minor sixth chord.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Theolonius Monk would call it "D minor sixth with B in the bass" (Dm6/B or just Dm/B). That doesn't make a whole lot of sense theoretically, but it does highlight the fact that this chord is a subdominant and a dominant squashed together.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Alot of the older jazz guys I know describe it this way. One revered Montreal bassist would cringe at the mention of a "half diminished chord" and thunder "There ain't no such thing! It's a minor chord with the sixth in the bass!"

And some of them still refer to it simply as "sixth in the bass". As far as the question of theory, it does in fact make sense. While the older swing oriented players would more likely use locrian mode of the major scale (e.g. for Bm7b5, use the C major scale), the beboppers were just as likely to use the 6th mode of the melodic minor scale behind it. (e.g. for Bm7b5, use the D minor melodic scale). When used this way, the "sixth in the bass" thinking becomes crystal clear.
The only difference in the two modes is the ninth tone. The swing fashion would have a flattened ninth, and the beboppers would just as likely employ a major ninth note. It's subject to taste.
I still have a hard time using the natural ninth tone over half-diminished chords, depending on how I use it in the line, but for some reason including the natural ninth in chords seems less problematic.
The bridge of Dizzy's "A night in Tunisia" is often heralded as the first significant use of this chord in a modern jazz setting. Monk wrote the bridge.
-John

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www.ottawajazz.com [This message was edited by John Steele on 11 August 2004 at 02:36 PM.]

Les Pierce · Post by **Les Pierce** » 11 Aug 2004 7:28 pm

Do my eyes decieve me? Is this an actual question about the playing of the steel guitar, on the Forum?

How refreshing!

Les

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Strat,Tele
Dekley S-10

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 12 Aug 2004 7:06 am

I second what EB says.

We covered this topic a couple of times, the minor7b5 chord.

What to correctly call it is not as important as accepting the fact that when you sit down to read a show or a chart that is written by what I would consider a "real" arranger, then you will just as likely to see the chord called a "half dim." as you would a "-7b5". Nobody really debates it, it is just the way it is. I personally like to see it written as a circle with a line through it just to make it look simpler and be able to be read faster.

Being that pedal players doing hard country are not usually faced with this chord enough to be totally comfortable with it then I would say just approach it from only the minor perspective.

As has been mentioned, the example of a B-7b5 chord is just a Dmin chord with a B in the bass. If a pedal player learned which minor triad made up the half dim. chord then it would not be baffeling at all when running accross one on a chart or in a song.

Examples--
Amin7b5 is just a Cmin over an A bass.
Cmin7b5 is just an Ebmin over a C bass.
Fmin7b5 is just an Abmin over F bass. And so on.

Maybe someone will ask about #11 chords and others and some real serious info on putting these fabulous chords together will com forth.

I have found that the most facinating players on the PSG are the ones who have the knowledge of these chords and how to use them. Todays hackneyed use of the E9 tuning and just depending on the simple triads in most songs has really made the use and familiarity with these beautiful chords somewhat of a mysterious deal when it should not be.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 12 Aug 2004 5:27 pm

Coincidence? I wonder....
This morning I was awakened by the sound of the "Tristan chord" wafting over the cool breeze. Having dozed off in the shade during the Philharmonic rehearsal break, not even remembering that Wagner was on the program, I can scarce convey in words the enraptured intoxitude with which I was thusly roused from the arms of Morpheus.
Little in all of music compares with the chord changes in the Prelude to Act I of Tristan und Isolde, often considered (along with that part wher they die at the end) too salacious for Victorian ears. And it all begins with that chord, enharmonically equivalent to the half-diminished chord of so much interest here!

It was followed by Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet Overture, where we hear this progression a few times in the quiet part near the beginning: <pre>
F F A
D D F#
B B C#
A F# (or A)</pre>
showing how our chord can provide a very cool subdominant kind of sound in F# minor. (I have marked the melody BDFA in the middle there.)

Gary Carriger · Post by **Gary Carriger** » 12 Aug 2004 9:17 pm

Hey be careful, Les. I seen some get ripped for a lot less here (no pun intended).

How is Arkansas?

Gary

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 13 Aug 2004 5:41 pm

The BDFA chord in question on a few places on the E9 neck:
<pre>
1. 3
2. 6 3L 1/2
3.
4. 5
5. 9 A 1/2 8A 6 5A 1/2 3
6. 12 B 9 8 B 6 5B 3
7. 8 5
8. 12 L 9L 8 L 6L
9. 12 9
10. 12
</pre>

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Bob
intonation help

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 13 August 2004 at 06:44 PM a bunch of times and it was a real pain in the ass.][This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 13 August 2004 at 06:46 PM.][This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 13 August 2004 at 06:48 PM.][This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 13 August 2004 at 06:50 PM.][This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 13 August 2004 at 06:51 PM.][This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 13 August 2004 at 06:51 PM.]