Recording Steel Survery

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 30 May 2002 7:09 am

I have been tracking my steel through my new Roland VS2480. I would like input from you guys on what gives you the best results. Such as: do you go direct/POD/mic amp; what are your compression perameters (ratio,threshhold,attack,gain); what are your eq peramters; do you apply verb on playback: what preamp do you use; these kind of questions. Last night I got a pretty good track going direct. Used compression with a ratio of 2:1, threshhold at -14db, attack and release is where I need input. Right now I'm playing back with onboard room verb which is not very good. Onboard preamps, which are ok. As soon as I get my ProFex back, I'll track with it using the preamp, and verb. I'll report back.
I got a pretty g

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 30 May 2002 7:44 am

Chris,

With my little project studio (G4 with DP3/MOTU 2408) I mike an amp with a 414 into a Joe Meek channel strip. I avoid all other pre amps and outboard. Sometimes if I need to go direct I plug into the Joe Meek and from there straight into the I/O interface.

I have found that when I use digital plug in type compression on input that by the time I'm done recording and mixing my steel track tends to sound sort of nasal or like its down the hall if i'm not careful.

I know guys recording major CD's doing the guitar overdubs at home plugging straight into your machine.

Bob
[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 30 May 2002 at 08:49 AM.]

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 30 May 2002 10:08 am

Bob, that Joe Meek, is that your compressor or preamp? I heard those are pretty good pre's for the $. I agree about the nasel effect. On using compression, I'm always afraid of peaking a signal on input that can ruin a good take. Especially on bass, vocals, and I noticed my steel could distort even if not at 0db if I don't compress.

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 30 May 2002 10:09 am

Oops, I reread your post. That would be a preamp.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 30 May 2002 11:18 am

Depending on what I'm doing:
Evans FET500 amp -> Black Widow 1501 mounted in a Standel Artist cabinet and sometimes coupled with a tube amp, like a Standel. Earthworks mics -> TC Electronics Gold Channel pre-> recording medium( DA-88 or harddrive or Ampex 351).

Direct: either an Evans preamp or a Demeter Tube Bass Pre->Demeter Real Reverb (springs)-> console.

or, for more agressive music: Evans preamp ->TC Electronics G-Force ->
Eventide Ultra Harmonizer -> MosValve and 1501 speakers or direct to console.

for art music: Evans or Demeter pre -> TC Electronics Gold Channel -> TC Electronics M-5000 -> H-3000 Ultra Harmonizer -> MosValve or direct.

You might notice that there is no compression in any of these chains. From my experience, there are times when compression is usefull, but more often than not, it tends to take the life out of the guitar.

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 30 May 2002 11:46 am

The trick to using compression and limiting is to not hear it working. From reading your post, it sounds like you want to avoid clipping the input. A compressor will not protect you from that, you need to use a limiter, 10:1 ratio or higher, fast attack ,fast release, and make sure it's working just on the peaks. Compression on the other hand sounds much more musical when you use a longer attack time, release time would depend on what's being played. 2:1 or 3:1 is usually a good starting point. 3:1 means for every change of 3 db going into the compressor there will be a 1 db change coming out for signal that's above the threshold. Those big in your face vocals you hear on records right now are made this way, using 2 and 3 compressors all chained together. The first in the line is the limiter for peaks only, then a compressor or two each doing only a few db of gain reduction. The end result doesn't sound squashed just big. Another good thing is what's called soft knee compression, the higher the signal goes above the threshold the higher the ratio gets. Much more musical sounding.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 30 May 2002 1:54 pm

I use the line out from a Vegas,with a delay pedal in patch inputs. I put a jack in 'Power amp in' to mute the speaker. A very acceptable tone.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 30 May 2002 4:28 pm

I did a recording session the other day using an Evan's SE-200 with the speaker miked
and the preamp output of the amp direct to the hard disk recorder at the same time. On play back, one side was panned hard left and the other was panned hard right. It created an interesting pleasing blend.

Someone on another thread mentioned they recorded the steel guitar using a flat response. I mentioned this to the fellow doing the recording and it made a huge difference in the sound of the steel on the recording. [This message was edited by Len Amaral on 30 May 2002 at 05:30 PM.]

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 31 May 2002 5:24 am

Chris, I've got a VS1680 in my studio and I've tried a whole variety of combos for the sake of tone. I especially like going direct with the Twin amp mod set at 20 for treble, 80 for bass and 20 for mid. I use onboard reverb and delay, but just looped therefore not committed. The very best tone that I've gotten was miking with a 58 off-axis and no eq., but for ease and convenience if no amp is around, I use the Twin mod. I also A\B'ed recently against an
ART TPS tube preamp and a DBX vocal preamp and I found that the pres in the 1680 were just about as good, so I took them back. Congrats on your 2480, you must be a happy guy.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 31 May 2002 6:26 am

My favorite direct setup is GTR--VolPed--Digitech2112(using tube preamp w/ or w/o FX)--board.

Works GREAT for me. Very quiet -- allows me to use my single coils with very few engineer complaints. I do record through speakers as well, but I don't find much missing from the direct setup described above.

Your mileage may vary.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 31 May 2002 6:37 am

Here's a couple short samples of
my recording into a KORG D1600.

<a href=http://members.localnet.com/~jsganz/66EmE9.mp3>sample one</a>

<a href=http://members.localnet.com/~jsganz/66EmC6.mp3>sample two</a>

These were done thru my own all tube preamp
that I built a few years back.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 31 May 2002 12:37 pm

Chris,

The Joe Meek is one of those channel strip jobs. It has a compressor in it that I use very lightly sometimes.

Bob

David Spires · Post by **David Spires** » 31 May 2002 2:06 pm

I've found that I am happiest micing my live rig. In my studio, I just throw an SM-57 on each speaker and have fun. After all, I have spent years trying to improve my live sound, why not try to capture that??

I think the best my rig has been captured was when an engineer used AKG 414 mics on my cabinets. I know that there are times that you want to go direct, or not want to carry all of the gear, but I'm just not comfortable or as happy with anything else.

IMHO,

David Spires

Rich Weiss · Post by **Rich Weiss** » 31 May 2002 3:41 pm

I just got a new Mac G4 and Digi001 (24 track Pro Tools) and I use a Pod 2.2 for just about everything, however, monitoring the Digital User Conference, which is a chat forum for Digidesign, the consensus seems to be not to compress anything, but let whoever masters your work (if you take it that far) provide the compression, supposedly because they have the high dollar equipment, and the
ears. Sounds like good advice to me.

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 31 May 2002 7:46 pm

Anybody had experience with an ADA Micro-Cab II for recording direct? The idea of using your own amp electronics, with just the speaker disconnected sounds good in theory. I realize that your speaker and cabinet are part of your amp's sound, so perhaps it doesn't work as well in the real world as it sounds on paper. I am very interested in anybodys expericence with this unit.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 31 May 2002 8:41 pm

I get the best results with a ribbon mike (Royer or antique) through a good mike pre. In terms of amp and cab I use a THD Univalve or Bivalve head with a number of cabs, always THD, but I have them with JBLs, Celestions, 12", 10", or 15", depending on what I am looking for. In terms of a reasonable mike pre, I like the Presonus Digimax a lot.

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 4 Jun 2002 5:43 am

Thanks for all the replys guys. Boy, there's a lot here to try.
John Lacey-I have not got into amp models yet. Are these the onboard models that come with the VS? And do you use them as an "insert" effect?
This week I recorded direct with onboard verb and eq. Pretty good results. I also recorded through a small tweed Peavey Delta Blues with a 57 close mic'd and a blanket thrown over the top. I got a great tone and track level on this setup.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 4 Jun 2002 7:20 am

Yes, Chris, these are the onboard amp models that are on the effects cards called "Clean Twin" and yes, I insert them. You might want to run a Steeldriver or Matchbox to brighten things up a little. Still the best scenario (for me) was miking the amp, it's just inconvenient at times. [This message was edited by John Lacey on 04 June 2002 at 08:23 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Jun 2002 7:21 am

Chris,
The preamp is the key to recording direct. Usually the ones built into a board like the one the VS-xxx machines (or other 'portastudio' devices) will not give optimal results. A good tube preamp can make a big difference.

FWIW

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 4 Jun 2002 2:07 pm

I do plan on getting a good mic pre, hopefully and Avalon single channel. Boy, they are pricey!! Mainly for vocals. Actually, the pre's on the 2480 are pretty good. I get really good results on vocals and acoustic guitar recording through a Studio Projects C1 condenser mic. This is a killer mic for the money (129.00). I can't wait to hear the C1 through a good pre.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 5 Jun 2002 7:47 am

my method of hooking up, all build in in my rack